Elemental Designs 13Av.2 Subwoofer ??

[Michael Savage 10+ year member]

my brother in law has the scion tc stealth box with a flat sub from Tang Band and nine.2, sounds amazing.

Fixed

 

[JayRich 10+ year member]

Well I do agree, this is a real "SUB" woofer, in that anything above 60hz, you'll have to rely on your mid bass. Anything above 60hz will likely be inaudible. My brother has the rainbow profi's and rainbow 6X9's in the back so it has more than enough mid bass for his application. For others who may not have good mid bass, this will not be the sub for them, but those who want great low end then this will fit the bill.

P.S. My brothers 13Av.2 has more authority down low than my Eclipse Titanium SW9152, but my eclipse does get a little lower though if that helps

 

[Electrodynamic 10+ year member]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif ruh roh raggy.
We shall continue to play the game of "X" motor topology with really short coil rated at 3 times as much power as any normal person would rate it at..and then wonder why 80% of them break...but by god it has low inductance and it'l play out to 300Hz flat (which is still VERY narrow bandwidth all things considered)..minus that little dip in response at the say sub 30Hz range because it runs out of excursion because the coil is short...

When will people learn that you need to focus on a solid 3 way setup...you shouldn't have to worry about inductance with anything that is honestly 'sq' related...as a sub never ever EVER plays anything above 50Hz in a SQ car that is worth its salt when being judged...

Inductance in and of itself should be more closely examined in a mid-woofer/midrange/tweet alignment...which is where "X" topology would be more at home imo.

:shakes head....walks away:

Hrmm...I guess that means that Klippel et al considering inductance over power and stroke as an issue for THD are all way off their rockers? Low, flat, inductance is a good thing for all drivers as far the scientific community is concerned, which includes subwoofers.

And how does a higher inductance lead to a flatter response?

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif ruh roh raggy.
We shall continue to play the game of "X" motor topology with really short coil rated at 3 times as much power as any normal person would rate it at..and then wonder why 80% of them break...but by god it has low inductance and it'l play out to 300Hz flat (which is still VERY narrow bandwidth all things considered)..minus that little dip in response at the say sub 30Hz range because it runs out of excursion because the coil is short...

When will people learn that you need to focus on a solid 3 way setup...you shouldn't have to worry about inductance with anything that is honestly 'sq' related...as a sub never ever EVER plays anything above 50Hz in a SQ car that is worth its salt when being judged...

Inductance in and of itself should be more closely examined in a mid-woofer/midrange/tweet alignment...which is where "X" topology would be more at home imo.

:shakes head....walks away:

Hrmm...I guess that means that Klippel et al considering inductance over power and stroke as an issue for THD are all way off their rockers? Low, flat, inductance is a good thing for all drivers as far the scientific community is concerned, which includes subwoofers.
And how does a higher inductance lead to a flatter response?

I think he's giving importance to inductance for all drivers, just not as much for subs when it comes to SQ setups with regard to the frequencies they'll be reproducing. For a subwoofer, inductance is more likely to be a factor for it's rise time in conjunction with the relative group delay of all other drivers. I've read in more than one place that our ear/brain system is not very sensitive to group delay below 40hz to 50hz so it might be forgivable to have a relatively higher inductance.

Just sayin'. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I know, that you know, that you and I know, that inductance should always be as low as possible at all times for every driver in the universe. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

Hrmm...I guess that means that Klippel et al considering inductance over power and stroke as an issue for THD are all way off their rockers? Low, flat, inductance is a good thing for all drivers as far the scientific community is concerned, which includes subwoofers.
And how does a higher inductance lead to a flatter response?

Exactly how much of that inductance shift/change can you hear? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Science is science, but if you can't hear it and it is not audible...wouldn't it be smoke and mirrors?

When does it start to come into play as well? (Specific frequencies, and when/where do you cross the point of marginal returns of a situation where I only have 14mm of excursion so my bottom end is going to suffer (drop an octave excursion has to double to have the same amount of output hence your 'flat' response is now not so flat on the other end where Inductance does not matter and Linear Excursion is the name of the game)...but it plays flat from 35-300Hz..what good is that in a Subwoofer when you are playing organist music that is in the >35Hz range?

Yes you are hitting low-inductance straight on the head, but that is only one pepperoni to the whole pizza pie.

Hence, which is why it should be more closely examined upon with a woofer, and mid-woofer application. Instead of a sub-woofer. I never said that Higher inductance leads to a flatter response..because after 80hz it does not matter in a sub-woofer (Granted yes you can have something upwards of 8+++ Henry's of Inductance and it will start to roll off at 55Hz) But, your mids should be picking up the pace after 56Hz or so anyhow...but you are a true God of Sound Quality...why am I even telling you that?

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Excursion must quadruple for every octave halving. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

Excursion must quadruple for every octave halving. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Don't think so..not if I did my math right at least...

60Hz to 30Hz, excursion must double in order to be at 100dBa to 100dBa on..

It takes twice as much energy to create that much volume at the same dBa level.

So if you are at 14mm of excursion at 60Hz...you must be at 28mm at 30Hz to be just as loud...or 'flat' in this scenario. But, if all you have is 14mm of excursion, and that is all you can do due to mechanical limits...you will roll off much quicker...most importantly given this scenario in the opposite side of the frequency spectrum in which Inductance is not a concern in a Sub-woofer. They are made for frequencies focused on 80Hz and down. Inductance focuses it's ill effects on the vast majority of large wire voice coils in frequency ranges that are not common with a Sub-woofer (80Hz and up)

So i guess the proper term for something of that caliber instead of being called a 'Sub-Woofer' would be a 'Sub-midwoofer' Since it would play below what a 'woofer' would...but it sill plays higher then a 'woofer' would as well due to having such low inductance and not rolling off as fast on the top end...

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Don't think so..not if I did my math right at least...
60Hz to 30Hz, excursion must double in order to be at 100dBa to 100dBa on..

It takes twice as much energy to create that much volume at the same dBa level.

So if you are at 14mm of excursion at 60Hz...you must be at 28mm at 30Hz to be just as loud...or 'flat' in this scenario. But, if all you have is 14mm of excursion, and that is all you can do due to mechanical limits...you will roll off much quicker...

So i guess the proper term for something of that caliber instead of a 'Sub-Woofer' would be a 'Submid-woofer' Since it would play below what a 'woofer' would...but it sill plays higher then a 'woofer' would as well due to having such low inductance and not rolling off as fast on the top end...

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

To generate a given sound-pressure level, the diaphragm's acceleration must be constant, meaning that its excursion must quadruple with every halving of frequency. This phenomenon explains why high-quality moving-coil loudspeakers usually have two or more drive units: a large, low-frequency driver,which can move enough air to reproduce bass sounds, and a smaller, high-frequency driver.

A passage from this random web finding:

http://www.epanorama.net/links/audiospeakers.html

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Exactly how much of that inductance shift/change can you hear? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Science is science, but if you can't hear it and it is not audible...wouldn't it be smoke and mirrors?
When does it start to come into play as well? (Specific frequencies, and when/where do you cross the point of marginal returns of a situation where I only have 14mm of excursion so my bottom end is going to suffer (drop an octave excursion has to double to have the same amount of output hence your 'flat' response is now not so flat on the other end where Inductance does not matter and Linear Excursion is the name of the game)...but it plays flat from 35-300Hz..what good is that in a Subwoofer when you are playing organist music that is in the >35Hz range?

Yes you are hitting low-inductance straight on the head, but that is only one pepperoni to the whole pizza pie.

Hence, which is why it should be more closely examined upon with a woofer, and mid-woofer application. Instead of a sub-woofer. I never said that Higher inductance leads to a flatter response..because after 80hz it does not matter in a sub-woofer (Granted yes you can have something upwards of 8+++ Henry's of Inductance and it will start to roll off at 55Hz) But, your mids should be picking up the pace after 56Hz or so anyhow...but you are a true God of Sound Quality...why am I even telling you that?

There are many ways to go about this. I would like to see you argue this point with a company like B&W that use woofer sin their systems that will play well below 20Hz to 350Hz. There are many ways to go about doing SQ and they can sound just as good. Your description of a low crossed sub with a low crossed mid sounds great, but a sub crossed at 100Hz can sound just as good as well. It's just 2 different approaches to the same situation and they are both equally valid. I would love to see John Janowitz get on here as well as he is very knowledgeable on the subject of both schools of thought.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

There are many ways to go about this. I would like to see you argue this point with a company like B&W that use woofer sin their systems that will play well below 20Hz to 350Hz. There are many ways to go about doing SQ and they can sound just as good. Your description of a low crossed sub with a low crossed mid sounds great, but a sub crossed at 100Hz can sound just as good as well. It's just 2 different approaches to the same situation and they are both equally valid. I would love to see John Janowitz get on here as well as he is very knowledgeable on the subject of both schools of thought.

Car audio, in a car, this is a Car Audio forum, with topics to be examined within this context. We are not talking about Sub-woofers in a multimedia setup..i've got my foot on one that is broken from JBL that died after 75Hz and played up to 5-600Hz with ease...

Go talk to every IASCA, USACi, and MECA SQ competitor with a title under their belt. $100 dollar bill with your name on it says that they are no where near 80Hz or a higher crossover point for their Subwoofer.

Why?

Because it makes the eyes and ears wonder to places where they should not be.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

To generate a given sound-pressure level, the diaphragm's acceleration must be constant, meaning that its excursion must quadruple with every halving of frequency. This phenomenon explains why high-quality moving-coil loudspeakers usually have two or more drive units: a large, low-frequency driver,which can move enough air to reproduce bass sounds, and a smaller, high-frequency driver.

A passage form this random web finding:

http://www.epanorama.net/links/audiospeakers.html

Been wrong before //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Thanks for the info!

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Car audio, in a car.
Go talk to every IASCA, USACi, and MECA SQ competitor with a title under their belt. $100 dollar bill says that they are no where near 80Hz or a higher crossover point for their Subwoofer.

That may be so, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. I am sure someone could win it doing it that way. Possibly the drivers they were using suffered too much distortion at those frequencies to have done it that way yet.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

There are many ways to go about this. I would like to see you argue this point with a company like B&W that use woofer sin their systems that will play well below 20Hz to 350Hz. There are many ways to go about doing SQ and they can sound just as good. Your description of a low crossed sub with a low crossed mid sounds great, but a sub crossed at 100Hz can sound just as good as well. It's just 2 different approaches to the same situation and they are both equally valid. I would love to see John Janowitz get on here as well as he is very knowledgeable on the subject of both schools of thought.

I subscribe to this notion as well, but in a car you are sitting between the drivers in question, whereas at home you have the benefit of sitting at a great enough distance to allow the drivers which are crossed at higher points to meld by the time they have reached your ears.

When I build home gear, I cross much higher than I do in a vehicle.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Been wrong before //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Thanks for the info!

Me too my friend, I still learn a thing or two from this place on occasion. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

I subscribe to this notion as well, but in a car you are sitting between the drivers in question, whereas at home you have the benefit of sitting at a great enough distance to allow the drivers which are crossed at higher points to meld by the time they have reached your ears.
When I build home gear, I cross much higher than I do in a vehicle.

I was just going to amend my statement. I would never personally cross above ~100Hz in a car because the sub does become too localizable.

And has been pointed out, Klippel through testing has found that the single most important parameter to a driver is a low and linear Le curve.