Dsp, a must have?

[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

It's just fine tuning really. I used to listen to music in stereo. Now, in a car, if the music isn't time delayed to me in the drivers seat it just sounds weird. Like literally the left speakers are just too loud. My Kenwood eXcelon is doing a fine job time aligning to me for now and the built in speaker sizes selection and crossovers are decent. Honestly, I think this is a great way to get familiar with using a DSP is by using a head units built in DSP.

Makes since.. But still a lot of in and out of settings on an HU and pushing a lot of buttons ect when listening to a song to fine tune to your liking rather than moving a slider up or down or turning a knob to fine tune at your finger tips

 

[Jimi77 5,000+ posts]

So picture me talking with an open mouth, with food in it... So you are saying to a person curious about DSP's they should rely on the skills one might have that 20+ years of being an audio engineer would give you, tune the system by ear and not use the tools that were invented to make that job not only easier but more accurate?

I've used an RTA, IMHO they're just a PITA. Like I said earlier, mine is just sitting around gathering dust. If you're competing and need the flattest possible response, then you need an RTA for your score. Keep in mind flat doesn't doesn't sound good to most people or Audio Technica and Beyer Dynamics would be leading sellers of headphones instead of Beats, Sony, Bose, JBL, etc.

You don't need to be an audio engineer to listen to a sine sweep to hear the peaks and valleys. You don't need to be an audio engineer to listen 1/3rd octave pink noise tracks to be able to tell tracks 13-15 were significantly louder than other tracks and you need to address it. It helps to have years of experience to understand why tracks 13-15 were louder and how you might address that, but RTA isn't going to help you with that. As a matter of fact, I'd say there is significant value in listening to test tracks and doing it by ear as it helps you correlate what you're hearing in your music and why it does or doesn't good.

And as I'm typing this some A-hole is blasting his 10kw system and literally rattling my coffee cup.

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

I've used an RTA, IMHO they're just a PITA. Like I said earlier, mine is just sitting around gathering dust. If you're competing and need the flattest possible response, then you need an RTA for your score. Keep in mind flat doesn't doesn't sound good to most people or Audio Technica and Beyer Dynamics would be leading sellers of headphones instead of Beats, Sony, Bose, JBL, etc.

You don't need to be an audio engineer to listen to a sine sweep to hear the peaks and valleys. You don't need to be an audio engineer to listen 1/3rd octave pink noise tracks to be able to tell tracks 13-15 were significantly louder than other tracks and you need to address it. It helps to have years of experience to understand why tracks 13-15 were louder and how you might address that, but RTA isn't going to help you with that. As a matter of fact, I'd say there is significant value in listening to test tracks and doing it by ear as it helps you correlate what you're hearing in your music and why it does or doesn't good.

And as I'm typing this some A-hole is blasting his 10kw system and literally rattling my coffee cup.

To the average listener they may not be able to listen to the sine sweep and say "there is a 4db peak at 442hz and a massive 7db dip at 1326hz" let alone be able to say that there is a phase cancellation. Being able to see what you are hearing will help tremendously.

Edit: human ears are designed to hear midrange like vocals and such and these frequencies are boosted naturally by human ears. This is why when people adjust their graphic EQ's it typically will have that classic "Rock EQ" shape... boosted bass, cut mids, and boosted highs. That is us trying to flatten the response so to speak. I agree, a perfectly flat response is not desirable. I typically boost upper mid/treble as I am older. Each ear is different and unique to what it prefers.

 

[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

What about those that are loosing theyre hearing?? I have one side drum that is a bit more responsive than the other due to heavy machinery ect over the years. Id deff have to tune by ear the majority of the time. I still do, and even at times most cant hear what I do that I feel needs adjustment with better hearing?

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

What about those that are loosing theyre hearing?? I have one side drum that is a bit more responsive than the other due to heavy machinery ect over the years. Id deff have to tune by ear the majority of the time. I still do, and even at times most cant hear what I do that I feel needs adjustment with better hearing?

My right ear had about 50% loss of hearing. I have blown right side speakers by adjusting them to be louder and not being able to hear that they were in trouble. The RTA can help prevent that.

 

[Jimi77 5,000+ posts]

To the average listener they may not be able to listen to the sine sweep and say "there is a 4db peak at 442hz and a massive 7db dip at 1326hz" let alone be able to say that there is a phase cancellation. Being able to see what you are hearing will help tremendously.

Edit: human ears are designed to hear midrange like vocals and such and these frequencies are boosted naturally by human ears. This is why when people adjust their graphic EQ's it typically will have that classic "Rock EQ" shape... boosted bass, cut mids, and boosted highs. That is us trying to flatten the response so to speak. I agree, a perfectly flat response is not desirable. I typically boost upper mid/treble as I am older. Each ear is different and unique to what it prefers.

You don't need to know there is a 4db peak at 442hz, from the sine sweep. It just helps to know there's a hump in the midbass, there's a dip in the midrange, etc. The 1/3rd band pink noise tracks will narrow down what frequencies you need to adjust and your ears will tell you how much to adjust.

If somebody wants a Behringer Ultra Curve with mic to RTA their system, I'll part with mine for $200.

 

[Jimi77 5,000+ posts]

If your hearing is damaged, then a visual aid is a necessity.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

My DSP install lasted about 15 minutes. I went the user friendly route. I actually bought a Taramps 4 way electronic crossover. Old School cool.

 

[deez283 10+ year member]

I'm running a active 3 way setup and it's my first time running active with a Dayton DSP-408 so far so good. I feel like you can get much better bang for your buck VS. passive car audio branded sets.

I bought 3 dsp-408's from PE when they had them "restocked" for 70.00 each and 2 of them had serious noise issues in a vehicle but worked 100% fine in a home setup. So I'm using one for some active speakers in my garage with a 7.1 Denon, 6 fully active channels 170x6 at 6 ohms or 200x6 @ 4 ohms.

 

[ianik777]

Using a pioneer S1000 Processor and its fine. have many config capabilities and its only 174 USD. but must admit that with a nice head unit, amp and nice speakers, not really need a DSP. many of us are not audiophile expert to really hear the difference between a system with vs without.

 

[just call me KeV 10+ year member]

You should have some way to adjust the sound to your vehicles interior. This is whether you're building a street battle or sq setup. How much dsp is needed is dependent entirely on your preferences, gear and power used. A few thoughts about this... When I was at slamology recently I listened to perhaps 23 cars the first day. After about four hours my ears were fried and I just wanted to go back to the hotel.
I think if we should be chasing anything its tonality. I am not against or even dislike PA setups. I ran one myself when I had a horn car. (Underdash Image dynamics/supertweeters in dash.) Many of them could do with some x-over adj. and aggressive eq'ing though. I'd happily trade stage width and depth to have something I could jam out too all day.
Listening fatigue is one of my pet peeves. When I build a system I need to be able to want to listen to it for more than 30 minutes. This is at both normal and "critical" volume. There are some great PA setups out there. But a lot are just loud. You know what I mean. We use the words brittle, hot, crunchy to explain the sound.
Again this isn't me making judgements. Just personal observation. This could be achieved by more than one component if needed. 30 bands per side graphic eq'ing. ability to do 24db
x-over slopes, and perhaps an parametric eq as well would be where I would start. T/A would just be icing on an otherwise delicious cake.

 

[mat3833 10+ year member]

You should have some way to adjust the sound to your vehicles interior. This is whether you're building a street battle or sq setup. How much dsp is needed is dependent entirely on your preferences, gear and power used. A few thoughts about this... When I was at slamology recently I listened to perhaps 23 cars the first day. After about four hours my ears were fried and I just wanted to go back to the hotel.
I think if we should be chasing anything its tonality. I am not against or even dislike PA setups. I ran one myself when I had a horn car. (Underdash Image dynamics/supertweeters in dash.) Many of them could do with some x-over adj. and aggressive eq'ing though. I'd happily trade stage width and depth to have something I could jam out too all day.
Listening fatigue is one of my pet peeves. When I build a system I need to be able to want to listen to it for more than 30 minutes. This is at both normal and "critical" volume. There are some great PA setups out there. But a lot are just loud. You know what I mean. We use the words brittle, hot, crunchy to explain the sound.
Again this isn't me making judgements. Just personal observation. This could be achieved by more than one component if needed. 30 bands per side graphic eq'ing. ability to do 24db
x-over slopes, and perhaps an parametric eq as well would be where I would start. T/A would just be icing on an otherwise delicious cake.

I'm right there with you. I can appreciate the super clean "clinical" sounding systems as much as I can the pure volume beasts. But my system should be able to play loud and sound good. For that you need some form of adjustment. I have time alignment, phase control, crossover slope and type, a 13 band parametric EQ(per channel, so 91 possible EQ changes across 6 speakers and a subwoofer.), and level matching all in my DSP. On top of the DSP I have my headunit that has a 31 band EQ, Dolby sound settings, etc. I can make my car sound however I want. I listen to my stereo for an hour each way to work, my ears shouldnt hurt when I get to work.

Matt

 

[mr roo]

Do you have to have dsp, no. Once you get one will it make a huge improvement, yes. Unless someone completely screwed the tune and didn’t know what they were doing, can’t see how you wouldn’t have a sound improvement even on a very good non dsp system. I got into dsp by buying a used unit cheap and can’t see going back to not using one

 

[just call me KeV 10+ year member]

Do you have to have dsp, no. Once you get one will it make a huge improvement, yes. Unless someone completely screwed the tune and didn’t know what they were doing, can’t see how you wouldn’t have a sound improvement even on a very good non dsp system. I got into dsp by buying a used unit cheap and can’t see going back to not using one

I certainly should have touched on this. It is entirely possible given the new dsp's that you could really screw something up. Fortunately you can go back to factory settings but if you haven't got a grasp of how system/speaker integration, freq. nulls, overlapping x-over points, eq'ing and time alignment work you are going to be frustrated and not get the most out of your gear.
Also, with the sophistication of dsp's you would be well served to use a mic in the process along with some pink noise. When we run a freq. sweep we can see where the peaks and nulls we have in the car. Moreover; we can move the mic into different mounting positions to map out the cabin. Now I am not saying you have to be insane about it but a mic really is invaluable. A good tune by ear is only the first step.
There's so much more that goes into it so I encourage anyone curious to do research. Like a lot of obsessive research. Like it's 3 a.m. and I need to sleep but I want to finish this article/white paper; research. This is how I see the car audio hobby though. Full send.