Designing a crossover for a DIY speaker project

ok...i just now figured out what the freq response for that midwoofer was by looking at the graph...so ur saying since this woofer plays well over 2khz that it would blend well with a tweeter which you are saying should use a 2khz crossover...then (theoretically) i would want to find a woofer that plays well up to preferably over 200hz cuz lower than taht is where the midwoofer drops off...right?

 
DCX2496 is a digital crossover. $250 shipped.Amplifier - you choose.

Drivers {individual speakers} - you choose

Get a cheap dome tweeter, cheap midrange to start the learning process.

Connect the DCX to your source and the speaker to your amplifier and play

with the digital crossover so you can understand what happens when you

change settings.

http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

You could develop on an active test bench to find the best settings then try

to make a passive crossover to mimick performance.
how exactly does this test bench work? would i have to build the box to specification first, then install the speakers without crossovers and hook it up to the active crossover? cuz they would need to be in a box in order to do testing, right? then i would have to uninstall the drivers, build the passive crossovers, and reinstall everything....is this what u are saying?

 
how exactly does this test bench work? would i have to build the box to specification first, then install the speakers without crossovers and hook it up to the active crossover? cuz they would need to be in a box in order to do testing, right? then i would have to uninstall the drivers, build the passive crossovers, and reinstall everything....is this what u are saying?
A bare bones setup would be;

Portable CD player [headphone jack output] -> DCX2496 -> amplifier of your

choosing.

A better setup would be;

Home CD player [or universal DVD player] -> AV receiver [for volume control] ->

DCX - amplifier.

Put these items on a table and that is your test bench.

Buy a driver and connected it directly to the amplifier. If the driver is a tweeter

or midrnage, just leave it there sitting on the table. If you want to test bass

performance, make a test box for the midwoofer or woofers. If you want to hear

the high frequency performance, you don't really need a box. You could make

a box too to mimick a more realistic scneario.

Verify the DCX setttings for the particular driver [ie, connect the high pass output to the amp for tweeters, connect the midrange output for midrange, or connect the bass output for woofers.

Turn on the system and listen to familiar music. Prop up the driver [if it's not

in a box] to hear it on axis far away, up close, whatever. Change DCX settings

to hear what happens to the sound.

/easy

For tweeters, determine what might be a good crossover starting point

and use a 24dB slope, lets say start at 2khz. Skew the crossover higher,

as high as you want to hear what happens. But don't go too low as you

might damage the tweeters, it's a judgement call. To protect tweeters from

excess power insert an inline AGC 1A fuse. Select different filter types and slopes and sweep the frequency range to understand what sound you

are getting from each scenario. Think of it as a blind date.

For midranges or midwoofers, the audition is more complex as there are

more scenarios to try out. You should do a battery of listening tests to

determine what the driver can and can't do for you. Think of it as a second

blind date to determine how many holes are accessible //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/veryhappy.gif.fec4fed33b4a1279cf10bdd45a039dae.gif

For example, a midrange driver in a normal design will have two crossovers,

a high pass and a low pass. The high pass cuts out of the bass, the low pass

cuts out the treble, it's essentially a band-pass crossover. If it's a midwoofer

the bandpass may be 80hz - 2khz. This is a generic region. If you use a pure

midrnage the region might be 300hz - 2khz as pure midrange drivers offer no

bass so you need to filter out the bass by raising the crossover point otherwise

you can damage the driver with over-excursion.

So.. you have this midwoofer or midranges on the table with no box, playing

in some bandpass frequency range. First thing you notice is there is no bass

because the driver is free air. Don't worry about it, ignore it. Focus on midrange

sound quality only. Off axis, on axis, different SPL levels, different crossover frequencies/slopes. Ignore the fact that there is no tweeters or woofers playing

and thing about how natural the voices sound and instruments.

To make the test more interesting, disable the low pass section of the crossover

so the midrange plays 'wide open' on the top end, meaning you aren't crossing

out the treble. Listen for the nasty breakup modes and how they annoy you

OR not. If your crossover is flexible, you can just raise the crossover point from

... lets say 2khz to 20khz and this will mimick not using a low pass. The DCX

allows this.

Later, you want to test the bass performance of your midrange so you make a

test box, sealed, ported, whatever. Put the midrange in the box and change

the high pass crossover setting. You can set it very low, like 20hz to mimick

no high pass crossover to see what the driver does as you raise power. Most likely the bass will cause cone over-excursion which will damage the driver.

Raise the 20hz setting higher in increments until you think it sounds good

and has less excursion that raises it's power handling.

At the same time, try tweaking the low pass crossover to check how the driver

sounds in a box vs. free air or open baffle.

For woofers, you need a test box and all you do is change the low pass

setting.

Tweeters are easy,

midranges are easy too but will require a test box if you want to listen to it's

bass performance.

Woofers need a test box otherwise the audition is invalid.

Listen to 20 different tweeters, midranges, and woofers, spend a few months

everyday doing this and eventually you can mix and match combinations

of drivers based on your auditioning memory.

The ideal scenario is to find drivers that have less problems 'out of the box' so you DON'T have

to EQ them as it makes your job is integrating them easier.

 
thanks so much for all the help your giving me...i only have one more question for you right now...i dont have an amplifier, except for my mini system...30 watts per channel boom box type thing, with seperate speakers...i cant figure out how i would hook it up...if i test one speaker at a time, like your suggesting, then i can (one output from the DCX2496 and one input on the stereo...would this be acceptable? or do i need to get JUST an amplifier with a few channels...can i do multiple speakers at the same time? otherwise, how would i be able to tell which tweets/mids/woofers sound good together?

 
You have to feed your amplifier a low level signal via an RCA cable. If your boom

box has no RCA input to your amplifier then you are out of luck.

To listen to a driver being tested all you need is one signal from a stereo setup,

pick left or right, and feed this into the DCX input, left or right input, and drive

one amplifier channel only.

can i do multiple speakers at the same time?

That is why active rules. You can run your whole system this way permanently

and have the ability to tweak it forever.

A 3 way loudspeaker would need a 6 channel amp to do this.

two channels for tweeters {left + right}

two channels for mids {left + right}

two channels for woofers {left + right}

If you are making a 2 way, then you need 4 amp channels.

The subwoofer is considered a seperate unit not part of this discussion.

Since the DCX is a 3 way device, you can make a 2 way floor stander and

use the 3rd output for your subwoofer as you can sum the left and right channels.

otherwise, how would i be able to tell which tweets/mids/woofers sound good together?

When you reach Sith Lord status it's easier to visualize driver integration.

 
wow...awesome...i noticed that the inputs/outputs are XLR..at least i think they are...does that mean i gotta get a direct box to convert:

1/8" stereo mini --> quarter inch adapter --> Direct box --> XLR cable?

cuz all that stuff adds up...

 
Check this out.

http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=248407

An example of someone designing a 'technically correct' passive crossover in

software.

Capacitors used;

1uF

2uF

3.2uF

5.7uF

6.2uF

20uF

Coils used;

100uH

200uH

390uH

1.7mH

Resistors used;

1.2 Ohms

4 Ohms

20 Ohms

///

Which capacitors to use? The best would be Telfon, polystyrene but good luck

finding those large values. The realistic choice is foil/film polypropylene but even

those are high priced and the capacitors are physically big. What everyone uses

is metalized polypropylene which is good, but not elite. Store bought consumer

grade speakers will use rock bottom low performing non polarized electrolytics.

Price compare;

Film/Foil Poly

1uF - $10 ea.

2uF - $14 ea.

3.2uF - $18 ea.

5.7uF - $31 ea.

6.2uF - $31 ea.

20uF - $85 ea.

$189 x 2 {two channels} = $378 for elite capacitors. I'm sure if you look hard

you can get non-name brands for 1/2 that price, still it's almost $200 just

for these caps.

Metalized Poly

1uF - $1 ea.

2uF - $1.5 ea.

3.2uF - $1.75 ea.

5.7uF - $2 ea.

6.2uF - $2.15 ea.

20uF - $5 ea.

Much better. $13.40 x 2 {two channels} = $26.8

Coils;

100uH - $2

200uH - $2.5

390uH - $5

1.7mH - $18

Coils - $27.5 x 2 {two channels} = $55

Resistors are cheap so I won't go there.

*Elite capacitor plus coil cost = $433

*Good capacitor plus coil cost = $81

///

If you spend all that time making elite crossover design and used

electrolytic capacitors, you should be spanked. If you used metalized poly

caps driver cost will be $81 + resistor cost + shipping, over $100.

If you feel like you want the elite crossover parts you will spend over $450.

If this is a DIY venture, the $250 digital crossover sounds pretty good as

it can be used over and over again for future builds assuming you don't use

your previous builds. You can also make a passive crossover for your previous

build if you wanted to use that loudspeaker or have plans to sell it. If you have

plans to sell it, then make a cheap passive crossover. But if you like to DIY

speakers the active system pays for itself in no time.

The big bonus with active;

You can create different sounds from a single design.

The passive version is fixed, you can't change component values, crossover slopes,

adjust frequency, add delays, etc etc etc.. without designing a whole new passive

crossover.

 
wow...awesome...i noticed that the inputs/outputs are XLR..at least i think they are...does that mean i gotta get a direct box to convert:
1/8" stereo mini --> quarter inch adapter --> Direct box --> XLR cable?

cuz all that stuff adds up...
I don't know your skill level, but if it was me I'd make my own cables.

http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=220559&highlight=cables

1/8" on one end, XLR on the other end using decent cable.

 
wow...i think i should pass on making my own cables...maybe one day, but not yet //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

for now, i think i found some suitable substitutes...

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-6-XLR-Male-TRS-1-4-Patch-Cable-6ft-GLS-Audio-37-305_W0QQitemZ7362642011QQcategoryZ41461QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

there are 6, which i think is more than i need, and they arent very expensive at all...so its simpler than making my own cable, and far cheaper than getting XLR cables plus direct box plus quarter inch cables...

my question...how much will sound quality be affected by cheaper cables?

as for you and your active crossover, thylantyr, i do plan on getting one //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif you have convinced me... i plan on using it permanantly for my home theatre setup (although i cant figure out how i would run a 5.1 with only 3 outputs) and i also plan on using it to design speakers and build passive crossovers...

 
Before you buy cables figure out what you want to connect to.

What source will connect to the DCX ? The DCX back panel here;

http://www.behringer.com/02_products/proddetail.cfm?lang=ENG&id=DCX2496&type=210

Three inputs, XLR female. You need male XLR cables to plug into the inputs.

Six outputs, XLR male. You need female XLR cables to plug into the outputs.

For example;

If you used an AV receiver with RCA output, you need RCA male

to XLR male cable, two of them, one for each of the two channels.

For DCX outputs. If you use a home amplifier that accepts RCA input then

you need RCA male to XLR female cables.

If you have a pro audio amplifier that has XLR input then you need a

female XLR to male XLR cable. If your pro audio amp has 1/4" TRS {many amps

have both XLR and 1/4" inputs}, then you can use the 1/4" to XLR cable also.

Not to complicated matters, but many home amplifiers use RCA input and have

no gain controls so the output of the Behringer will be a higher voltage output

{10V world) and the home amplifier's input sensitivity is in the 2V world meaning

that the Behringer will provide a very strong signal to the home amplifier, in this

case too much gain, and your signal to noise ration will suffer. Too much hiss.

One trick to reduce output gain is to make a custom XLR to RCA cable to reduce

gain by 6dB. I have my DCX connected to a home amp and my custom cable

has a switch to select 'normal' or -6dB attenuation to get 'less hiss' when using

the home amp.

my question...how much will sound quality be affected by cheaper cables?

The only thing related to SQ with cables is 'extra' noise picked up by the cable

and the cable length that makes the cable act like a low pass filter. In other words, if your cable if very very long you can attenuate the high frequencies

that pass through the cable. You can do the 'math' to figure this out if you

know some parameters about the cable and equipment used. I wouldn't worry

about this if you keep your cables under 50 feet in length. Even cheap cables

are fine.

as for you and your active crossover, thylantyr, i do plan on getting one //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif you have convinced me... i plan on using it permanantly for my home theatre setup (although i cant figure out how i would run a 5.1 with only 3 outputs) and i also plan on using it to design speakers and build passive crossovers...

The DCX is a good development tool and you can use it permanetly as long

as you understand that it's a six output device. You can make your left/right

towers 2 way plus sub and use the DCX, you can make a 3 way tower and use

all six outputs but you won't have subwoofer output, you could use more than

one DCX for esoteric installs but if you want to do a 5.1 setup the DCX would

only be used for your two main speakers. For surrounds and center channel

you might have to make a passive crossover design for those speakers or

make your HT system more elaborate by making it all active.

Another thing to note. For best signal to noise performance of a DCX using

analog inputs, it's best to get higher voltage preamp to drive those inputs.

For example, home gear is 2V, some stuff is 1V. This will work but if you want

lower noise performance you would need to insert a dedicated analog preamp

to drive the DCX. ie,

Source {1V to 2V} -> Preamp {~ 8V} -> DCX analog input.

This would be ideal if you had a bigger budget. One such example would be

a Parasound Halo preamp, $800. It has XLR outputs with 8V I believe.

Before you do anything you have to figure out the master plan to see how

all the stuff interfaces to one another.

Also, set priorities on what is important to you. Is HT more important than

2 channel audio? Do you really want an active system for your two tower mains?

Do you plan to build more systems in the next few years OR do you want

to play with drivers to understand them? Is spending money on a 'test bench'

worth it or can you live with loudspeaker kits already engineered and found in

cyberspace? Do you think you will keep upgrading the sound system?

 
Also, set priorities on what is important to you. Is HT more important than

2 channel audio? Do you really want an active system for your two tower mains?

Do you plan to build more systems in the next few years OR do you want

to play with drivers to understand them? Is spending money on a 'test bench'

worth it or can you live with loudspeaker kits already engineered and found in

cyberspace? Do you think you will keep upgrading the sound system?
soo many questions...all of which i have answers for...home theatre will EVENTUALLY be more important than two channel audio, but right now im in college/living in dorms so i just wanna start learning about different drivers, how they sound, and how they go together...within the next few years, i dont plan on building too many systems, maybe one or two to get my feet wet...more importantly, i want to play with drivers :-D ...that is, play to LEARN...i think spending money on a test bench is worth it...i have always loved audio, i got into caraudio a few years back and my whole system got stolen, and i never replaced it, and i hardly drive anyways so now im looking to the home...i want not only to HAVE some awesome stuff, but know how its built...specifically, i want to build it...that way i can tailor it to MY preferences...i may build a project tahts been already done...one of the sub-$100 per pair ones just for practice...but i raelly want to get that test bench and start gaining an understanding of more that is out there....i do plan on constantly upgrading my system, not TOO often, but in order to cater to my needs, if i test a new brand of speaker that i like, i may have to build it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
So.. you want to be a loudspeaker Jedi ......................... or is it dark lord //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

If your plan is to find the awesome drivers by doing test bench auditions then

you can settle for cheaper sources. While a portable CD or MP3 player works,

it's kinda noisy for critical listening. Find a used AV receiver on the auction site

for dirt cheap, or perhaps a good preamp with volume control. Get the DCX

and buy a universal DVD player. I recently snagged a Samsung HD941 universal

DVD player for $126 shipped. CD, DVDA, SACD, MP3, and even HD-CD playback

so you can sample different formats. I chose this particular brand only because

it will output upsampled DVD over component video which is an illegal function,

it does it by means of a simple remote control hack {press some keys to enable

the feature}. I have an old HD RPTV with no digital inputs so this hack enables me

get come better picture quality in 1080i mode. You can get used universal DVD

players for cheaper.

When buying drivers for audition the good news is --> you only need to buy one.

You really don't need to listen to the drivers in stereo unless you want to burn

2x more cash. After you collect drivers you have a reference. You can do blind

tests with people by hiding the drivers behind grill cloth and making a simple

switcher to toggle between two drivers being compared too. This is what I do.

If you like high impact, higher SPL sound I have some suggestions as that is

what I seek when doing this hobby.

If you really want to push the envelope, seek a pro audio amplifier for testing.

I suggest a used QSC RMX series. The RMX2450 is the best bang for buck.

2400w for $400 used, $600 street, sometimes you see then new for $500.

QSC has many RMX lines, RMX850, RMX1450, RMX1850HD, RMX2450, RMX4050HD,

RMX5050.

What you can do for testing is run the amplifier in bridge mode to really push

the drivers hard and to raise clipping headroom as to remove the amplifier

from the equation.

You can also use Crown XLS, those are Crowns entry level amps that are cheaper

than RMX but they don't have some cool features I like that the RMX offers like

'easy bridging', 'air tunnel' heatsink, variable speed fan. I don't remember if XLS

has subsonic filters, I'm too lazy to look.

 
Here's what you need to do :swordfigh

Make a list of high end audio stores and go audition some expensive loudspeakers,

Bring the same CD to the audition, a CD that you are very familar with.

Take notes on the system you heard. Speaker brand, what type of drivers used,

how much power were the amps. Don't worry about CD players or preamps used,

focus on the speaker, room size, driver sizes and power used.

This will help calibrate yourself to find what type of system you like sorta like

test driving a vehicle.

If you find something awesome then see what's so special about the loudspeaker, get up close and start the examination.

When it's time to DIY you have a reference point to start with.

 
problem is, your suggesting i spend a whole lotta money kinda fast...i wanna ease into it with what i have...i can use my line out from my computer so i can play CDs on here and send the signal to the DXC...then, i want to output to that stereo i already have (it has RCA inputs) and run the driver i am testing out of there...its only 30 watts per channel, i guess i could bridge it (right?) since im only testing one driver at a time...

this way, for NOW, i could only have to buy the DCX, some drivers, and some cables, and begin my journey...unless u see an error?

 
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