car insulation and sound deadening

[SocialStealth]

So I want to sound deaden my car (probably with RAA mat or ss)

I also want to add insulation to my car, so it stays cooler in the summer and hotter in the winter; because my shitty mazda is made of plastic and loses heat like 50 cent after hitting a convenient store.

Would raa mat act as good insulation?

or should I add some of that pink stuff they use in houses?

Lets say I put the raamat down, then I put a layer of insulation on top of it, would that negatively affect my sound? IDK if it'll absorb the music or something, I'm noob.

Click to read more...

 

[JuicyJeff 10+ year member]

where do you plan on stickin some pink panther?

 

[SSS 18734 5,000+ posts]

Sound deadening is not really a noise barrier.

I'm curious to see how well this stuff actually works:

http://www.lobucrod.com/

For the price, I might pick some up.

 

[Bologna 10+ year member]

Probably in the doors, but I doubt you have that much room between the doors. If you did it on your ceiling it might be alright and your floor... it would just add padding to it in-case of an accident lol.

 

[nineball 10+ year member]

dampening - http://www.secondskinaudio.com/vibration-mat/damplifier-pro.php

insulation - http://www.secondskinaudio.com/thermal-insulation/heat-wave-pro.php

 

[Rudy 10+ year member]

Don't use home insulation in your car unless you have some way to completely enclose the fiberglass - you REALLY don't want that stuff floating around. You also don't want anything like that in your doors since it will hold moisture. Your best bet for general purpose thermal insulation is closed cell foam. You can use one of the natural fiber materials in places you know won't see moisture.

 

[mvw2 10+ year member]

I'll note that I am no expert or claim to know everything about this. The following info is basically what I've figured out in my own research on the subject. If you're curious about anything specific, I can point you towards some useful links. Anyone is free to correct me if I'm in err(i.e. Don from SDS or Ant from SS or anyone else who has been working in the field or researched it much more them me).

Basic concepts:

Anti-vibration mat (butyl-aluminum mat):

Function: Turns physical vibration energy into heat energy, keeps car panels from turning into their own speakers.

Misuse: Most folks use this as a barrier, high coverage, many layers. This product is not designed to work like this and does it poorly.

Use: A higher level product only needs one layer, 25%-50% coverage to do the job. Lesser products may be in the 50%-100% coverage range. Use in the center of large, flat panels.

Barrier (mass loaded vinyl, lead sheet):

Function: Blocks outside noise from getting into the car in the first place by use of reflection, i.e. low energy sound wave hitting a high mass wall.

Misuse: Not using it in the first place. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Use: Full coverage. Sound is like water. It will find the holes and leak in. Better use of a barrier is to have it float (decoupled) from surrounding parts. This is typically done with a foam layer, so the product will be a layer of vinyl with a layer of foam underneath to decouple it from the sheet metal or panel. Typical use is you lay down your anti-vibration mat in key areas, then your barrier over the entire surface.

Absorber (cotton, wool, glass fiber, etc.):

Function: Absorbs sound waves and turns them into heat energy. This essentially fixes what the blocker missed or fixes created waves in the environment (boominess, echos, etc.)

Misuse: Using too thin a product. Typically, we think of the foam as this product, but good function only comes from a LOT of thickness, 4" to 6" to 8" to be effective over a wide frequency range. A thin piece is only useful for just very high frequencies. A car environment doesn't lend itself to widespread use of this type of product. As well a closed cell foam is more of a blocker then an absorber.

Use: A thick layer to absorb reflections. It may be useful under the dash to soak up reflections in the foot wells from low placed speakers. A thick layer in corners act as bass traps, cutting out boominess and excess noise. It's good to research home use of this product and translate what you can do in a car. You will typically see little to no use of this type of product in-car. It simply requires too much material to be effective over a wide frequency band. Thinner products work but only for higher frequencies.

For companies, you have quite a few:

Raamaudio

Second Skin Audio

Cascade Sound

Sound Deadener Showdown

Dynamat

RoadBlockR

and I'm sure I'm missing a few, not to mention Home Depot type products like Peel n Seal and such.

I'll note that Sound Deadener Showdown has the thickest and most heavy duty anti-vibration mat with their CLD tiles. Second Skin's Damplifier Pro is the second thickest (aluminum foil thickness and overall thickness). I'll note that Second Skin is working on a "SPL" oriented product that from what I understand will run a very thick aluminum layer and a butyl layer that is a little more rubbery in design.

Second Skin's Luxury Liner/Pro is a good barrier product, a foam decoupling layer plus a vinyl layer. Cascade Sound has more barrier options with several choices including both lead and vinyl. Cascade also has done testing on their products and provide STC and NRC ratings for much of their products, something not done by any other company. Cascade has also been doing this for 20 years, so they kind of know sound deadening really well. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Info on STC and NRC and their difference (a nice little tutorial is available to explain it). This also shows the difference between a barrier and a blocker in function.

http://www.stcratings.com/

 

[SocialStealth]

wait... so RAA mat is nothing but vibration dampener?

If its not a barrier, then why do people cover their entire car with it?

I've never seen anyone cover 25% of their car panels with RAA mat and call it a day. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

 

[KyleBechtold 5,000+ posts]

wait... so RAA mat is nothing but vibration dampener?
If its not a barrier, then why do people cover their entire car with it?

I've never seen anyone cover 25% of their car panels with RAA mat and call it a day. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

misuse.. and misuse by follow

 

[Rudy 10+ year member]

mvw2 made an important point here:

Use: A higher level product only needs one layer, 25%-50% coverage to do the job. Lesser products may be in the 50%-100% coverage range. Use in the center of large, flat panels.

You will get sharply diminishing returns after that first 25% at the center of panels has been treated - that's true whether you use a high performance vibration damper or not. The real question then is how much is getting done in that first 25% or so. The more you spread out past the centers of the panels, the less added benefit you get for the material you are adding. Same goes for multiple layers - each added layer is less effective than the one below it because you are essentially damping the underlying layer of damper instead of the panel itself.

 

[mvw2 10+ year member]

misuse.. and misuse by follow

And misuse by ignorance. I'm personally guilty of this, although, I could now say that I've sort of "seen the light," lol. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif I'm sure I still don't know everything though. I think SDS is the only company out there that actually tells you to use less product. No deadener manufacturer tells you to use just 25% coverage. Most are happy to tell you to use more then one layer but don't tell you why or to what realistic effect. This isn't to say more isn't better. It's not like 3 layers of 100% coverage won't work. It'll work great. It's just not needed and as Don pointed out with diminishing returns.

Now there hasn't exactly been scientific backing though. For example, I would love to see an engineered test for resonance, basically a sheet of treated material, an exciter (swinging hammer, fired projectile, repeatable input energy), and a decay plot showing energy dissipation after the strike. One could measure effect and speed of effect for a wide variety of configurations.

 

[SocialStealth]

so, cover 25% with raamat. Is a barrier worth the money?

I don't have any rattles at all. I just want to get rid of engine noise//road noise.

 

[mvw2 10+ year member]

Depends upon the effectiveness of the mat. Raamaudio's mat is relatively thin compared to SDS's or SS's products.

Raamaudio is very cost effective per square foot, but I can't say it's worth the price in terms of functionality versus other options. There simply hasn't been any real testing on this unfortunately.

The mat isn't designed to block out noise. The gearing of the product is to damp vibrations. If you want to block noise, you need a barrier product. You'll be looking at things like Second Skin's Luxury Liner/Pro, Cascade's VB-3, VB-4, etc., and SDS' mass loaded vinyl and foam (sold as separate parts instead of a combined package). These are the blockers that will block out the noise. The butyl mat just isn't geared for this function and does it poorly relative to a proper barrier.

 

[James Bang 5,000+ posts]

another option and more info: http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi

 

[krisfnbz 10+ year member]

another option and more info: http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi

x2

Your not going to find better product, price and knowledge anywhere else! Contact Don immediately.