Can you really hear the difference between amps?

[.::DuD3::. 10+ year member]

damping factor is subjective? thd is subjective? slew factor is subjective? protection circuitry in the signal path is subjective?

Damping factor and slew rate aren't subjective.
And they aren't really important either (in the amplifier's we are talking about in the realm of car audio).

99.9% of [solid state] amplifiers on the market are going to have adequate enough damping and slew rate as to not audibly affect the sound over the bandwidth the amplifier was designed to operate in.

If they DID by chance affect the sound, the result would be a measurable difference in frequency response.

The only way that is going to affect the "sound" of an amplifier is if it audibly (and hence, measurably) affects the frequency response, noise or distortion.

No one or test has yet to demonstrate that something other than the measurements of frequency response, distortion, noise, gain and power output affect the "sound" of an amplifier. These measurements completely characterize the "sound" of an amplifier. If those measurements are within inaudible tolerances, there will not be a difference in sound between two amplifiers.

I completely agree with squeak. All the things itsbacon stated are virtually inaudible in a car's setting. Once again, it seems everyone is falling into the amplifier manufacturer's trap. Somehow everyone gets hung up in these specifications, when almost every amp on the market is going to sound the same regardless. If you can prove me wrong, you should take this test and win $10,000.

Just a //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif, no one has EVER passed that test! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[2Tone 10+ year member]

I completely agree with squeak. All the things itsbacon stated are virtually inaudible in a car's setting. Once again, it seems everyone is falling into the amplifier manufacturer's trap. Somehow everyone gets hung up in these specifications, when almost every amp on the market is going to sound the same regardless. If you can prove me wrong, you should take this test and win $10,000.
Just a //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif, no one has EVER passed that test! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

i know for sure that ive owned and listened to every amplifier that you guys have ever wanted growing up as a kid... i just did a simple test earlier this week and the difference was in my face as the first thing i noticed... i dont know about if i can choose between what class, but i do believe that choice of parts, quality, and build design do have a factor in how a amp will sound... this maybe the backyard way of doing it for most of us, but you cant argue with what you hear from the same set of speakers

 

[dragnix 5,000+ posts]

perhaps your knowledge of how each amps would measure up affected your judgement of the "sound" of an amp?

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

but you cant argue with what you hear from the same set of speakers

Actually yes, you can. And quite easily.

There are many more factors to consider when conducting an "amplifier comparison" than simply unplugging one amp and connecting another.

Variances in gain structure can affect output for a given volume setting. Not closely enough matching power output. Heck, if you knew which amplifier you were listening to the test is completely invalid. This list could go on for a while.

I've never seen an "amateur" amplifier comparison on these forums (or anywhere else) conducted in a manor that would make the results valid. Of the comparisons that have been conducted in a manor that would make the results valid, they have all indicated that the sound of an amplifier is completely characterized by the measurements previously listed.

Which means the "choice of parts, quality, and build design" will ONLY cause an audible change in sound if it also causes a measurable differences in those previously mentioned measurements that exceeds the threshold of audibility. If you can equalize frequency response, match power output, maintain inaudible levels of distortion, have inaudible differences in the level of noise and properly match the gain structure you will not have a difference in the sound regardless of choice of parts, quality, and build design.

Keep in mind I am not saying that "all amplifiers sound the same". I am attributing differences in sound (or lack thereof) to quantifiable measurements of the amplifier's performance. Anything that is going to affect the "sound" of an amplifier must affect one of those measurements. If it doesn't measurably affect one of those measurements, it will not affect the sound.

I will say that I believe a significant portion of the audio amplifiers on the market will very likely fall into the range where the differences in those previously mentioned measurements will not be audibly different. And even if there are slight variations in frequency response, for example, a simple equalizer could be added to the system to remove this effect.

 

[abcsr2ez4me 10+ year member]

So if there are no audible differences in various amplifiers given that they are the same level of power, then am I only buying Alpine because it looks nice and feels/weighs like a "quality" amp or would a California Profile amp of similar output be the same audibly?

 

[oldschool4me 10+ year member]

wow, what a thread lol. i do believe that amps sound different. the old punch amps had a distinct sound to them imo. i have switched amps with the same power ratings and noticed a difference in sound. can you find two amps that put out the exact same sound? even the same model for that matter. its electronics. nothing is perfect. its like saying all tv's have the same picture.

 

[60ndown 10+ year member]

Is it really possible to hear the difference between different amplifiers?
a friend of mine has a us amps xt-1600.4 which is supposedly 125x4 (more like 100x4 at most) and i have an arc 4150-xxk which is about 80x4. he tells me that there is no audible difference because 80 watts is 80 watts and because his amp is capable of more power, it should be able to play easier at 80 watts.

id bet $100 of my monies that NO-ONE would be able to tell the difference between a mackintosh and an alpine at 70 mph.

or,

all amps (should) sound the same.

all theyre supposed do is amplify the signal, not change it, therefore, if the amps any good, it will sound exactly the same as another 'good' amp

 

[oldschool4me 10+ year member]

in theory yes, but cant happen, so why is the power out put of two of the same identical amplifier different on the birthsheet? and why would power be the only difference in the two amplifiers? thd means nothing in sound quality? and is the output of amplifiers at different frequencies the same? it cant be. can someone show me this please? because my audio art amp sounds so much different than the crossfire i had and they were rated the same.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

wow, what a thread lol. i do believe that amps sound different. the old punch amps had a distinct sound to them imo. i have switched amps with the same power ratings and noticed a difference in sound.

Reread my post.

can you find two amps that put out the exact same sound?

Yes.

even the same model for that matter.

Yes.

its electronics.

Exactly !!

nothing is perfect.

Doesn't have to be perfect.

Just inaudibly different.

its like saying all tv's have the same picture.

No, it's not really at all like saying all TV's have the same picture.

If that's all you take from the conversation, then you don't actually understand it.

Though one could apply the same concept to a Television. Not all TV's have the same picture quality. But why ? Well, I'm not knowledgeable enough in that arena to create a list of what causes the differences. BUT, a list of measurable & quantitative parameters could be constructed that completely characterizes the quality of the picture. And if you had two different TV's of completely separate design and materials with invisible differences between those measured parameters then the quality of the picture would be visually indistinguishable. And the only way anything could affect the picture quality would be if there was a measurable & quantifiable difference between those parameters significant enough that it surpassed the threshold of visibility.

That is what "it's like saying".

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

Keep in mind I am not saying that "all amplifiers sound the same". I am attributing differences in sound (or lack thereof) to quantifiable measurements of the amplifier's performance. Anything that is going to affect the "sound" of an amplifier must affect one of those measurements. If it doesn't measurably affect one of those measurements, it will not affect the sound.

This is pretty much the key of the discussion...good luck to anyone trying to prove it wrong //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

so why is the power out put of two of the same identical amplifier different on the birthsheet?

Differences in manufacturing tolerances on that day? Butterflies in Beijing? Who knows?

and why would power be the only difference in the two amplifiers?

It might not be, but unless those differences are audible...see above.

thd means nothing in sound quality?

Sure it does...within the realm of audibility.

and is the output of amplifiers at different frequencies the same?

Depends on what amps you're talking about at the time...

 

[.::DuD3::. 10+ year member]

So if there are no audible differences in various amplifiers given that they are the same level of power, then am I only buying Alpine because it looks nice and feels/weighs like a "quality" amp or would a California Profile amp of similar output be the same audibly?

That's a very good question.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

wow, what a thread lol. i do believe that amps sound different. the old punch amps had a distinct sound to them imo. i have switched amps with the same power ratings and noticed a difference in sound. can you find two amps that put out the exact same sound? even the same model for that matter. its electronics. nothing is perfect. its like saying all tv's have the same picture.

Have you not read anything in this thread? What you said makes no sense. Your experiment by switching out amps is in no way justified because of a billion factors, so saying one amp has 'better sq' than the other just by swapping it makes no sense. Last time I checked, amplifiers AMPLIFY the sound. So in reality, the signal from the source should only be AMPLIFIED to the speakers. THD, S/N ratio, or other specifications are not generally audible, so you shouldn't/can't hear the difference. The difference you heard is for other reasons, but NOT because one amp has 'better sq' than the other.

 

[SHOemup233 10+ year member]

Thank you to JimJ and Squeak being way smarter than me in car audio, and making me a little smarter. Good posts. Ha, probably one of the biggest 'myths' of car audio.

 

[2Tone 10+ year member]

wow, what a thread lol. i do believe that amps sound different. the old punch amps had a distinct sound to them imo. i have switched amps with the same power ratings and noticed a difference in sound. can you find two amps that put out the exact same sound? even the same model for that matter. its electronics. nothing is perfect. its like saying all tv's have the same picture.

very good point

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

I really hate this topic...

I really really really do...

 

[2Tone 10+ year member]

Reread my post.


Yes.

Yes.

Exactly !!

Doesn't have to be perfect.

Just inaudibly different.

No, it's not really at all like saying all TV's have the same picture.

If that's all you take from the conversation, then you don't actually understand it.

Though one could apply the same concept to a Television. Not all TV's have the same picture quality. But why ? Well, I'm not knowledgeable enough in that arena to create a list of what causes the differences. BUT, a list of measurable & quantitative parameters could be constructed that completely characterizes the quality of the picture. And if you had two different TV's of completely separate design and materials with invisible differences between those measured parameters then the quality of the picture would be visually indistinguishable. And the only way anything could affect the picture quality would be if there was a measurable & quantifiable difference between those parameters significant enough that it surpassed the threshold of visibility.

That is what "it's like saying".

^^^^^^ this guy is fruckin educated... i couldnt use these words in a sentence if my life depended on it.... in any car world, usually your project is never "really'' done... you will try this and you will try that... you guys should just relax , and experiment with things... Play with it... thats all you can do