Can you really hear the difference between amps?

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

ok...so let's recapUS Amps xt1600.4:

4 x 100W @ 4 ohms (0.03% THD)

4 x 200W @ 2 ohms

2 x 400W @ 4 ohms bridged

Freq. Response 20hz-250hz, +/- 1db

Arc 4150-xxk

4 x 80W @ 4 ohms

4 x 160W @ 2 ohms

2 x 320W @ 4 ohms bridged

THD:

Freq. Response: 20Hz ∼ 20kHz

S/N Ratio: 105dB

Channel Separation: >75dB

Transient Dist.:

Damping Factor: >2000 (1kHz)

Max. Current Draw: 82A

Fuse: 3 x 25A

Dimensions: 16.5" x 8" x 3.35" (41.9cm x 20.3cm x 8.5cm)

@ 80watts, audible difference or no?

In this case I doubt you would notice a difference...

Get the cheaper one...

 

[MikeyB 5,000+ posts]

Is it really possible to hear the difference between different amplifiers?
a friend of mine has a us amps xt-1600.4 which is supposedly 125x4 (more like 100x4 at most) and i have an arc 4150-xxk which is about 80x4. he tells me that there is no audible difference because 80 watts is 80 watts and because his amp is capable of more power, it should be able to play easier at 80 watts.

I definately noticed a large difference down grading from my us amps md2d to a hifonics bx, not just speaking output wise but sq wise. The signal from the us amps was just much cleaner, not that the hifonics sounded bad, just not as good as the us amps.

 

[22mountaineer 10+ year member]

So what is the reason everyone wants all of these high end amps then? If I had an MA amp that says 3600... In reality 2.8k maybe? And lets say a 2500d, maybe around 2800? Why the 2500d?

I understand if you are trying to get the 3.6krms out of the MA and end up frying everything, but what if you were careful and only wanted 2.8k?

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

It was more to illiterate a point.

Exactly.

If you thought that post was creating or illustrating a point, you don't understand the conversation at hand.

But, I am still a firm believe in the idea that electronics do sound different.

Belief is for religion.

This is about physics and science.

Obviously if you have two amplifiers/receivers/processors/CD Players that have the EXACT same specs side by side you aren't going to hear a difference. But, when was the last time you saw this?

When was the last time I saw two amplifiers/etc with inaudibly different frequency response, distortion and noise levels ?

Frequently.

However, I believe it is outlandish to say that "amp 1 will always sound the same as amp 2". Mostly because two amplifiers have different designs, components, tolerances, manufacturing processes, etc etc.

So what ? Seriously.

Designs, components, tolerances, etc are ONLY going to affect the "sound" if there is a measurable and audible difference in the noise, distortion, frequency response, power and gain.

If you have two amps with the same [audibly indistinguishable] noise, distortion, frequency response, power and gain then they are going to sound indistinguishable regardless of design, tolerances, manufacturing process, components, etc.

These all will make an acoustic change.

See above.

I don't view these threads or topics as being clever by showing the scientific numbers and ABX tests, I see them as people trying to say that a $500 amplifier will preform the same as a $5000 amplifier.

ONLY if there are insignificant differences in the noise, distortion, frequency response, power and gain.

To be honest, this goes against everything I have heard, seen, smelled, tasted, and experienced ever since I have been involved in audio. Which is my entire life.

I'm sorry you've been wrong all this time //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

And from my experience I have heard a difference, which leads me to believe that these ABX tests are total BS and setup to fail. Either that or they are picking people with hearing aids or extra crusty ears.

Wrong on both accounts.

They've been conducted on everyone from amateur to audiophile to manufacturer's and engineers of the equipment. I don't know if RC is still interested in conducting the tests as he pretty much stopped his activity on the carsound forums and has been conducting the comparison for over 10 years IIRC, but you could always contact him and see if he would allow you to take the challenge yourself. Any amps you choose. Heck, take your whole setup with you....speakers, source unit, etc.

Also, to save time, here's a good link that explains why and how these tests are not "BS";

http://www.elitecaraudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=123226

I remember sitting with my dad when I was little, he was buying new amplifiers for our old Meyer MSL-3 PA speakers. We had Crown, Hafler, QSC, Crest, H||H and a few other amps and listened to all of them. Over and over and over and over again. They all had different things about them that made some better than others in one area or another. Now are you telling me that these amplifiers didn't sound different?

Again, no one is saying all amps will always sound identical. BUT, if there was a difference, we can easily quantify where the differences exist down to 5 basic parameters that completely characterize their sound.

Differences in frequency response? Okay, pick the cheapest and use an EQ.

Differences in power ? Okay, pick the amp with the most power or properly level match them all to identical power output.

Differences in distortion ? Doubtful unless you were driving all of them into hard clipping. In which case, you need to move up in power.

Differences in noise ? Doubtful.

Differences in gain structure ? Possible that you had their output set to a point where they all output different power levels for a given volume setting ?

Or were the differences purely psychoacoustics, from knowing which amplifier you were listening to ?

But, doesn't my experience mean anything?

Quite honestly; No.

There are several problems that could arise giving "personal experience" little to no value.

Does someone's "personal experience" speaking with God prove that God exists, or is it possible that some other factor such as mental illness produced this effect ? Maybe they were mistaken and it wasn't God, just someone speaking over the PA system ?

Personal experience is the least valuable type of evidence.

Honestly, in my humble opinion, the anti groups is so strong in their voice that the truth doesn't even matter.

I would beg to differ.

I would say it's exactly the opposite. Those in the "believer" side chose to ignore any evidence brought forward by the "athiestic" side. They chose to believe in their "truth" regardless of the evidence brought against it, constantly searching for a anything that allows them to dismiss the evidence or dismissing it altogether based on little other than the fact it contradicts their "belief" and "personal experiences".

If I brought one of these COCAEDMAD (Church of Cables and Eletronics Don't Make A Difference) to my house, and sat them down on my couch and played a various mix of music and swapped amplifiers and cables and CD Players and asked them "did you hear anything change, because I switched amplifiers and CD Players" they would probably say "no nothing changed". Mostly because they don't care to hear any difference.

Or maybe it's because they don't care to allow their ears to deceive them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Or if they did hear a difference, they would chose to investigate why they heard a difference rather than place it in the realm of belief.

But, if you changed them on a non COCAEDMAD they might would hear a difference.

See above.

Example. I went to my ex-dealer a while back looking to get a dedicated CD Player (I know I must be one of those crazy antichrist audiophile types). I listened to 2 CD Players on the same setup (B&W 804S, Rotel Amplifier, Rotel Processor, also swapped the processor for an Arcam one too just for shits and giggles), but the CD Players were Rotel and Arcam. I brought identical original store purchased copies of all my CDs (I'm not even going to attempt to argue why CDR can sound worse than the original), I have 10 duplicates just for this purpose. Listened to the Rotel for a while, "wow that sounds good", listened to the Arcam "wow that sounds good", listened to the Rotel again.
Did this for about 2 hours, A/B them, then listen, then listen Loud, then listen Soft, then Listen at middle level, walk around and listened. I did EVERYTHING, and it is a good thing one of my friends used to work there. But, I walked out with the Arcam. Mostly because it was generally cleaner and had much better imaging. So, I could hear a difference. Was I just fooling myself?

Seriously yes, you could have.

Is it possible there MIGHT have been a difference in one of the factors I previously listed? Yes, there is.

But you must investigate the reason why. You can't just attribute it to "build, design and manufacturing".

Difference in FR ? Maybe if you already have an EQ in the system you could go with the cheaper and EQ out (or in) the difference ? Or maybe if there was a significant price difference it would be cheaper to with the less expensive unit and add a basic EQ ?

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

LAWL...

I'm not going to argue this anymore.

It is simply dumb. If you don't hear a difference and you believe that, well good for you.

Oh and believe is not just for 'religion' //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif.

If you think something is true or false you believe that. Kind of like if I was to say "Well I believe it is mighty cold today".

And you can't just EQ poor FR. If you want a colored sound then go for it... And I believe that to be true...

 

[22mountaineer 10+ year member]

Squeak, I was hoping you would post on my post to hear your input, it seems like you have more knowledge about the stuff then I could ever imagine myself having...

I read your last post and it seems like they would be the same if I had set the 2500 to 2500k and the ma to 2500k but I am not audio literate to what you are saying..//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/redface.gif.62fdbfe1a101588a808c4cff71bcb942.gif

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Oh and believe is not just for 'religion' //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif.

If you think something is true or false you believe that. Kind of like if I was to say "Well I believe it is mighty cold today".

"I believe, in the face of evidence to the contrary...."

That's religion //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif

And you can't just EQ poor FR. If you want a colored sound then go for it... And I believe that to be true...

And I know that is incorrect //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

In the strictly electrical realm we are discussing there won't be any difference between identical FR's. All a speaker can do is react to the voltage it's receiving. If that voltage is identical, well.......

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

So what is the reason everyone wants all of these high end amps then? If I had an MA amp that says 3600... In reality 2.8k maybe? And lets say a 2500d, maybe around 2800? Why the 2500d?

Build quality and reliability ? Customer Support ? Cosmetics/aesthetics ?

 

[22mountaineer 10+ year member]

I understand the build quality and service, but if its used then you will not really need the CS anyways, you will just have to send it off.

But if you are not trying to MAX out the MA, and just get a 2.8 then wouldnt it handle it easily?

Just looking at wattage wise, and not trying to max it out, isnt 2.8k, 2.8k?

 

[Decado2 10+ year member]

I can remember switching from an MTX 801D to an eD 9.1 and then to a Kicker Kx2500.1 , I did notice differences in all three, was not much though.

My 9.1 was louder at 1 ohm than the kx 2500.1 was at 4 ohms, but the kicker was WAY more effecient, the lights were dimming less almost to the point where they were the dimming is not noticable if you do not look really hard.

Even at 2 ohms, after doing all 1 guage power and grounds, I have no dimming unless I have the gain up too high.

The 9.1 had the headlights , dash, and interior lights all dimming. Hearing the difference was only really significant when I upgraded from the 9.1 and the 2500, the MTX, I had that running at 1 ohm which its NOT stable at, but it was taking it for 2 years before I gave ot to my brother.

I mainly upgraded from the MTX because I had the wrong subs for it.

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

no havent done one of those tests, all i know is i have had amps and then decided to go with something different and no matter how much i played with the adjustments it never got the same sound as the amp i had before. sometimes it works out for the better and sometimes it doesnt. is there a difference in quality of components used to build these amps? i know the internals on amps are all different similar to your statement on tv's. so if different components or quality of components used in an amplifier should then inturn give you different sound correct?

You are not listening. At all. Squeak is not saying that all amps sound the same. He is saying that if certain measurable paramaters are roughly the same between two amps, then THOSE amps should not present any audible differences.

If two amplifiers present significant differences in any of these paramaters, then they likely WILL present a difference in sound. Blindly comparing two amps without taking any of these measurements into consideration is completely invalid. You heard differences in sound because the amps in question were measurably different.

And just to shine some light on your TV comment, most flat-panel TVs use the same panels. A few little parts might be changed to influence certain picture characteristics, but they're all basically the same TV. The reason you see a difference in the store is because they adjust the settings to make it look like the more profitable TVs have better pictures.

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

LAWL...
I'm not going to argue this anymore.

It is simply dumb. If you don't hear a difference and you believe that, well good for you.

Oh and believe is not just for 'religion' //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif.

If you think something is true or false you believe that. Kind of like if I was to say "Well I believe it is mighty cold today".

And you can't just EQ poor FR. If you want a colored sound then go for it... And I believe that to be true...

Yes it is exactly for that!

The Law of Belief states that whatever you believe with feeling and conviction becomes your reality. It is not until you change your beliefs that you can begin to change your reality and your performance.

Another way to state this law is in the context of having faith. All of the religions of the world talk about one’s ability to always keep faith, as being a key to happiness and success. Whether you choose to follow religious dogma or not, the Law of Belief is something which can either help you achieve success or keep you from achieving it – depending upon whether you live in accordance with the law.

You have heard the doubters and the naysayers out there who always proclaim, “I’ll believe it when I see it!” In reality, it is the other way around; it is not until you believe it, that you will see it (no matter what “it” is)!

http://ezinearticles.com/?Universal-Law-Series---the-Law-of-Belief&id=70997

 

[22mountaineer 10+ year member]

I am still trying to figure out if I turn an MA HK4000d down to where it would produce 2.5krms, would it be the same as an orion 2500d. I know the orions are better built but when I am only trying to get 1/2 as much as the MA could possibly produce then it shouldnt cause problems/have trouble? So the question is, is a watt from X amp the same as a watt from XX amp?

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

I am still trying to figure out if I turn an MA HK4000d down to where it would produce 2.5krms, would it be the same as an orion 2500d. I know the orions are better built but when I am only trying to get 1/2 as much as the MA could possibly produce then it shouldnt cause problems/have trouble? So the question is, is a watt from X amp the same as a watt from XX amp?

The answer's in this thread already.

 

[spark plugs. 10+ year member]

I am still trying to figure out if I turn an MA HK4000d down to where it would produce 2.5krms, would it be the same as an orion 2500d. I know the orions are better built but when I am only trying to get 1/2 as much as the MA could possibly produce then it shouldnt cause problems/have trouble? So the question is, is a watt from X amp the same as a watt from XX amp?

i think squeak's saying taht if all of those 5 measurements aforementioned are the same (or alteast very close) then you should just rely on "Build quality and reliability ? Customer Support ? Cosmetics/aesthetics ? " to justify spend more or less money because you wn't hear a difference in sound.