Camry kicks and tweeter waveguide

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
Because i didnt want to mess up the other guys thread.

















The left midrange was done first so i wasnt sure how much carpet to cut so it came out shotty but ill make a trim ring and grill for them and they will look much cleaner. I just cut a hole in the body metal that vented outside. Hot glued and mounted a baffle then glassed. So its a fiberglass enclosure behind the carpet. Doesnt look too bad imo.

Next up is a DDRC24 and learning to play with Fir.

Im also in the stages and convincing myself to cut up the doors and build sealed pods for some 8s. Possibly two 15s Ib in the trunk. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif)

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audiobaun

CarAudio.com Veteran
Jun 28, 2011
10,094
110
USA
All these years Ive been enjoyed car audio, I have never tried glassing.I would like to try some A-Pillars one day and some door Pods

 
OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
Interesting! How does she sound /staged Ok?
I mean 80prs and c-dsp leaves me with fantastic tuning potential. so yea, She sounds great. Actually whats funny is what is holding me back is my own ears. I dont know what frequencies the male voice is and such. You can know the fundamentals but harmonics makes everything a ***** to track down. My system, no matter what drivers or what tuning power i have had, has never been able to make male voices sound good, they are always hushed and quiet but females sound friggin amazing. I need to learn to tune based on actual knowledge of frequencies and what instruments make them.

Like this

Ill say this about fiberglass. Its easy to learn, ******* hard to master. Ive spent too much on fiberglass materials trying to make them look Nice and i have never succeeded. Yea ive built MANY enclosures but idk how to like finish them in order for them to look smooth and presentable. They are thick and work great, just look terrible. I have had plenty of help on forums but i just cant seem to pull it off. Maybe i dont have the tools or something. Im a visual and hands on learner so someone telling me doesnt help much. maybe i need to go to a boat repair shop and just ask them if they want free help for a few weeks :p

Also, For those wondering about speakers so deep. They are way behind the kicks and i have NO issues with frequency extension,stage height, or depth) I think my left midrange goes to like 6.6khz and drops rapidly after that(also where im crossed over at). I have noticed and heard from others that you're soundstage will never be deeper or wider than your car and this is id say 80% true. Its more like the Front of the stage will never be farther than your deepest driver(assuming its playing a majority of your frequencies). What i mean by front of the stage is imagine your listening to a live recording and any good live recording will have a depth to the stage. youll be able to tell the drummer is behind and to the right of the singer. Youll be able to tell if there is a crowd in the front of you(think of the crowd in the beginning of Ac/Dc Thunderstruck). Basically the most Forward(closest to you) sound will only be as deep as your closest driver. My drivers are as far back as i can get them, they are literally glassed to the firewall(and deadened to the nines).

Basically im saying. Keep your tweets up high and use Kicks as much as possible. I despise A pillar builds short of those with a very deep dash. The hard window reflection is just a Cunt to tune(read: nigh impossible). Thats why i have waveguides on my tweets. i have quite seriously a near flat response from them when tuning. Any A-pillar ive heard were super in your face.

 

Jeffdachef

Gunz That Turn on Nunz
Feb 5, 2013
17,261
252
South Coast Metro, CA
Go with a bigger driver. I have no issues with male vocals shining with my pwx 10s. most people have very weak 1khz and under game and dont realize it. No amount of EQ or positioning will fix that other than using proper drivers for the job. a 2 way with a tweeter and 4 or 6.5 can only do so much compared to a 3 way. an 8 or 10 will be vastly superior at the lower registries than a 6.5 or 4. I kinda like my midbass notes to actually thump and pierce through my chest while providing a clear drum sweep across the dash so its beyond SQ levels of output but still SQ staging/imaging capable. In a 3 way i can drop the high pass to 50hz at -6 DB and still enjoy having globs of upper sub bass to midbass even though i'm subless right now.

 
OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
Go with a bigger driver. I have no issues with male vocals shining with my pwx 10s. most people have very weak 1khz and under game and dont realize it. No amount of EQ or positioning will fix that other than using proper drivers for the job. a 2 way with a tweeter and 4 or 6.5 can only do so much compared to a 3 way. an 8 or 10 will be vastly superior at the lower registries than a 6.5 or 4. I kinda like my midbass notes to actually thump and pierce through my chest while providing a clear drum sweep across the dash so its beyond SQ levels of output but still SQ staging/imaging capable. In a 3 way i can drop the high pass to 50hz at -6 DB and still enjoy having globs of bass even though i'm subless right now.
Thats the plan. I dont think a 10 is possible. Simply not enough Cuft for a sealed box. Everyone i know on Diyma who runs a 10 IB in their door says its simply too much woofer for a door. Like i said, im going for an 8 but i just need to figure out how to build a sealed enclosure. Another idea is go use my back deck and run 8s or 6x9s in there and go with a Midbass Array. It would work wonders and i wouldnt have to modify my doors at all.

Mercedes Midbass Enclosures - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

Jaguar XKR, Jbl, Audiofrog, Acoustic Elegance & iphone source. - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

Those two threads are my biggest inspiration atm. Btw the second one is huge but a fascinating read if you want to get into the very depths of SQ and FIR.

Im also not sure as to what 8in i want to go with yet.

Btw...Where are your subs dude..

 

Jeffdachef

Gunz That Turn on Nunz
Feb 5, 2013
17,261
252
South Coast Metro, CA
Thats the plan. I dont think a 10 is possible. Simply not enough Cuft for a sealed box. Everyone i know on Diyma who runs a 10 IB in their door says its simply too much woofer for a door. Like i said, im going for an 8 but i just need to figure out how to build a sealed enclosure. Another idea is go use my back deck and run 8s or 6x9s in there and go with a Midbass Array. It would work wonders and i wouldnt have to modify my doors at all.
Mercedes Midbass Enclosures - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

Jaguar XKR, Jbl, Audiofrog, Acoustic Elegance & iphone source. - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

Those two threads are my biggest inspiration atm. Btw the second one is huge but a fascinating read if you want to get into the very depths of SQ and FIR.

Im also not sure as to what 8in i want to go with yet.

Btw...Where are your subs dude..
I have them but i'm not gonna mount them until i fully sealed off and paint the wall and fiberglass the whole beauty panel.. Here's a sneak peak of whats done so far.



 

loudenuff

CarAudio.com Elite
Jan 24, 2015
720
0
WA gwon?
I'm really curious as to how mids in a kick panel produce midbass. This is probably a hella nooby question, but wouldn't it produce more sound in a properly sealed door? I could probably do kickoanels better than doors since it'd be cheaper for me to replace if I messed up. I just figured it wouldn't produce enough midbass to keep up with the substage.

 

Jeffdachef

Gunz That Turn on Nunz
Feb 5, 2013
17,261
252
South Coast Metro, CA
I'm really curious as to how mids in a kick panel produce midbass. This is probably a hella nooby question, but wouldn't it produce more sound in a properly sealed door? I could probably do kickoanels better than doors since it'd be cheaper for me to replace if I messed up. I just figured it wouldn't produce enough midbass to keep up with the substage.
ideally it'll be in the doors but even with a lil airspace 10s are just that good at the lower registries.

My end setup will be two pwx 10s in the doors, one UN 6.5 in the kick for midrange and tweets up top.

 

loudenuff

CarAudio.com Elite
Jan 24, 2015
720
0
WA gwon?
ideally it'll be in the doors but even with a lil airspace 10s are just that good at the lower registries.
My end setup will be two pwx 10s in the doors, one UN 6.5 in the kick for midrange and tweets up top.
Ah I see. So when it comes to doing setups like 10s in doors, how do you make a sturdy baffle for it? And maintain airseal? That's my whole issue, because I think with an mdf ring it'd be easy for me to just fiberglass a baffle in my door panel for an 8" (I'm planning on doing 8s in the doors, depending on what I can find and afford, or just go with ssa evil 6.5s which would make the process easier) but I'm not sure how I would make the sub fire into the actual door metal, because thatd require more tedious work which I don't trust myself to pull off.

 
OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
I have them but i'm not gonna mount them until i fully sealed off and paint the wall and fiberglass the whole beauty panel.. Here's a sneak peak of whats done so far.
Seems like alot of wasted space. Why not 4 on each side

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OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
Ah I see. So when it comes to doing setups like 10s in doors, how do you make a sturdy baffle for it? And maintain airseal? That's my whole issue, because I think with an mdf ring it'd be easy for me to just fiberglass a baffle in my door panel for an 8" (I'm planning on doing 8s in the doors, depending on what I can find and afford, or just go with ssa evil 6.5s which would make the process easier) but I'm not sure how I would make the sub fire into the actual door metal, because thatd require more tedious work which I don't trust myself to pull off.
Look at the two links i posted for how to do midbass enclosures right

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OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
Go with a bigger driver. I have no issues with male vocals shining with my pwx 10s. most people have very weak 1khz and under game and dont realize it. No amount of EQ or positioning will fix that other than using proper drivers for the job. a 2 way with a tweeter and 4 or 6.5 can only do so much compared to a 3 way. an 8 or 10 will be vastly superior at the lower registries than a 6.5 or 4. I kinda like my midbass notes to actually thump and pierce through my chest while providing a clear drum sweep across the dash so its beyond SQ levels of output but still SQ staging/imaging capable. In a 3 way i can drop the high pass to 50hz at -6 DB and still enjoy having globs of upper sub bass to midbass even though i'm subless right now.
Everything in clarity and male and female and instruments comes from frequency response and correct phasing. The size of a driver has absolutely nothing to do it.

Bigger drivers only add more sensitivity. Different polar response, lower beaming and louder spl. If u want a midbass thump. Its also in tuning and having a bump in that proper 50-65hz area. Snappyness comes from correct phasing and qtc from .5-.8

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Jeffdachef

Gunz That Turn on Nunz
Feb 5, 2013
17,261
252
South Coast Metro, CA
Seems like alot of wasted space. Why not 4 on each side
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actually it sort of strangled. needs more airspace IMO . 20 cubes net rear chamber 40 cubes net front chamber its a 6th order taking up the whole minivan. A bigger ratio could have been better to be honest but I think i got enough power to make it work. 4 team ascendant 18s on 30k B pillar 6th order. A bit on a small side however I should be seeing close to the sub's RMS rating clamped so it doesn't have to be giant however its hard to squeeze anymore out of it.

good thing is that i can use my front chamber to store snowboards, fishing rods, groceries or 4 crazy dudes along with having my rear hatch cargo area as well for stuff. I also have a rear AC unit that i will vent straight to the amps to keep them ice cold.

Everything in clarity and male and female and instruments comes from frequency response and correct phasing. The size of a driver has absolutely nothing to do it.
Bigger drivers only add more sensitivity. Different polar response, lower beaming and louder spl. If u want a midbass thump. Its also in tuning and having a bump in that proper 50-65hz area. Snappyness comes from correct phasing and qtc from .5-.8

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I'd rather have proper output on the midbass region and eq down rather than having to bump up the EQ. It sounds more natural to me. I tried bumping it up back then, it went loud but not the same clarity and loudness as a natural high output midbass should. Literally bumping a smaller driver up EQ wise will cause wierd peaks here and there but makes some decent output however the bigger driver without any EQ can literally push your pants flying and make you lose breath. The amount of midbass i prefer is ungodly compared to normal SQ/SPL people's preferences. Sad to say i'm a sound masochist I want everything to feel like its destroying my internal organs.

Just imagine a rave and you are right next to the PA speakers playing snares and kick drums, thats what i want replicated in my car but with a lot better and smoother response and proper imaging/sound stage. I'd literally try to do 12s if i had the room.

 
OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
I'm really curious as to how mids in a kick panel produce midbass. This is probably a hella nooby question, but wouldn't it produce more sound in a properly sealed door? I could probably do kickoanels better than doors since it'd be cheaper for me to replace if I messed up. I just figured it wouldn't produce enough midbass to keep up with the substage.
Basically. Every driver(speaker of any kind) has a certain set of parameters called T/S specs. These are made up of numbers based on the type of motor, the power of the motor, the total displacement of the cone, and lots of the other things. There are lots of drivers out there with all kinds of specs. Some are designed with hard suspensions so they can run Infinite baffle(think trunk or doors), Some are designed to go into small enclosures. For the most part. MIDBASS in kicks doesnt usually work because space makes bass. Imagine you take a 6.5 speaker and put it into a super small box, say like .2cuft and then do a freq sweep on it. Itll probably go down to 500hz and then drop DRASTICALLY. now if you were to keep adding space and keep doing frequency sweeps. You'd see your low end get more and more output. .3cuft. prob go down to 400hz, .5 cuft, go down to 200hz. And so on and so forth.

There is basically no space in a kick unless heavy modification has been done and it has been vented to the outside and then its considered Infinite baffle(like cutting big holes through your cars metal). If a kickpanel has been vented to the outside then you can get output but other problems tend to arise like resonances of the metal and what have you. The Big drivers you usually see in a kick arent actually playing low frequencies, they are simply big midranges. A bigger driver has a lower beaming but gets louder on the same power. For instance if you put 100 watts on a 4in speaker and itll be loud. Put 100 watts on a 6.5 and itll be really loud. So its not always about how big your enclosure is if you dont need your speaker to play low. In fact a good example is tweeters. Tweeters need such a small enclosure(tiny tiny tiny) that their enclosure is actually built into the tweeter itself.

You do tend to get a lower qtc in a sealed box(this is good) but it takes more power to get louder so there is a trade off.

As for doing speakers in doors. The spl and the Sq guys usually do it completely different. The spl guys for the most part reinforce their door card(the part you take off) and then deaden it to the nines and then fiberglass the FRONT of the enclosure onto them. Then they put the door card back on and their drivers fire directly into the actual door.


Like that. This is a great and cheap way to get alot of drivers on a door and get loud easily. however, These drivers are nowhere near optimized or properly dampened but they do get loud and will keep up with soundstages.

The sq guys either do one of two things. They mount their drivers directly to the door and then seal/deaden the door, then they modify their door cards to look good around the speaker mounted to the actual door. like so.


OR they do some crazy in door sealed enclosure like i plan too. like so. Not mine btw VVV


 

Jeffdachef

Gunz That Turn on Nunz
Feb 5, 2013
17,261
252
South Coast Metro, CA
Ah I see. So when it comes to doing setups like 10s in doors, how do you make a sturdy baffle for it? And maintain airseal? That's my whole issue, because I think with an mdf ring it'd be easy for me to just fiberglass a baffle in my door panel for an 8" (I'm planning on doing 8s in the doors, depending on what I can find and afford, or just go with ssa evil 6.5s which would make the process easier) but I'm not sure how I would make the sub fire into the actual door metal, because thatd require more tedious work which I don't trust myself to pull off.
never use MDF for anything ever again. Sanded 13 layer pine ply baffle and skeleton outline then coated with paint or some water proofing solution then wrap with fleece fiberglass resin and add layers of mat then more fiberglass then bondo then sand.

requires cutting door panels and making a whole enclosure for the 10. If you try to use the whole door alone, you'll run into a lot of nasty unsolvable rattles that deadener will not prevent depending how much power you throw on the 10s.

 
OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
I'd rather have proper output on the midbass region and eq down rather than having to bump up the EQ. It sounds more natural to me. I tried bumping it up back then, it went loud but not the same clarity and loudness as a natural high output midbass should. Literally bumping a smaller driver up EQ wise will cause wierd peaks here and there but makes some decent output however the bigger driver without any EQ can literally push your pants flying and make you lose breath. The amount of midbass i prefer is ungodly compared to normal SQ/SPL people's preferences. Sad to say i'm a sound masochist I want everything to feel like its destroying my internal organs.

Just imagine a rave and you are right next to the PA speakers playing snares and kick drums, thats what i want replicated in my car but with a lot better and smoother response and proper imaging/sound stage. I'd literally try to do 12s if i had the room.
I fail to see the difference. If your pushing a small driver to 50hz, even with proper T/a, Yea its gonna suffer. Youll have distortion up the ***. 6.5s arent even really designed to go lower than 80 save a few and definitely not lower than 80 with any real spl. Bumping at 50-65z wont cause weird peaks. The wavelengths are too long, you arent going to get any crazy harmonics at 100,150,200hz because of it. So yes, a bigger driver is better for midbass because it does it with less excursion and lower power needs thus much lower distortion. Go get a xbl motor midbass, you'd be astounded by the cleanness of the midbass. HOWEVER, due to arrays and how they work. You CAN have a 6.5 in the doors and midbass anywhere else in the car and with proper T/a and/or FIR filtering, youll have astounding LOUD clean and Natural midbass all due to interaural time difference and how we perceive it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

None of that matters ina spl rig tho. Biggest drivers and a ton of power and you're gold.

 

Jeffdachef

Gunz That Turn on Nunz
Feb 5, 2013
17,261
252
South Coast Metro, CA
idk man SQ guy's version of loud aint nothing close to what i think is loud. Even with the SQ guys with an LMS ultra 18 in an IB setup. My midbass overpowers theirs by miles and they were bragging about how good their high end CDT dedicated midbass are. Needless to say he didnt brag after hearing mines. Hopefully i get to do my doors by may 7th theres a meca SQ event thats pretty big. Time to win trophies in both arenas lmfao.

 
OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
idk man SQ guy's version of loud aint nothing close to what i think is loud. Even with the SQ guys with an LMS ultra 18 in an IB setup. My midbass overpowers theirs by miles and they were bragging about how good their high end CDT dedicated midbass are. Needless to say he didnt brag after hearing mines.
I know a guy doing a 6th on 4 jbl mk2. Two audiofrog gb10s in pods in the doors as dedicated midbasses and some other crap for midranges. His system isnt done yet but i have a feeling its gonna be friggin amazing.

I get what your argueing but were talking totally different world's.

At some point when the camry isnt a daily anymore. Ill probably go full spl on it. I think the whole idea of sql is a bit funny because i have around 200rms on each of my drivers and its louder than most people like to even be in and it still has a center stage and proper phasing and FR. There is a threshold IMO where SQ stops being about perfect tonality and starts being just loud enough to keep up with the substage without having crazy piercing highs

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OP
The Camry

The Camry

Hey, I Try.
Sep 22, 2013
2,991
1
Western Oregon
never use MDF for anything ever again. Sanded 13 layer pine ply baffle and skeleton outline then coated or some water proofing solution with paint then wrap with fleece fiberglass resin and add layers of mat then more fiberglass then bondo then sand.
requires cutting.
Jeff, I got a question for you. Why do you use fleece? IMO, Fleece is a huge waste of resin. It absorbs resin like a sponge and that isnt where you get the strength of "fiberglass" from. you get it from heat polymerization of the resin and fiberglass mat when it becomes a polymerized glass composite. I find it easier and much cheaper to find the most stretchy material you can(lots at walmart) and that that. Hell ive seen people make A-pillars outta resin/mat/ pantyhose. All you need is a basic shape for the initial lay up. The lighter and stretchy it is, the better. Imho

 
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