Acoustic Elegance AV15

[John_E_Janowitz 10+ year member]

I could give you the biggest bear hug right now.
This is the very topic I've been trying to push with SPL guys and their ultra mega uber stiff spiders. Usually brings up a few of these --->//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

SQ! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

Yeah I agree. The common thought is that more power handling = more output. In reality output is just a function of air movement. The ultra stiff, inefficient woofers just become good heaters as so much more of the power is wasted as heat in the coil.

John, I do want an SQ system. Didn't understand that last part that starts with "then you can lower the level...."
I have a Zapco amp 600wrms, does that sounds good as a foundation for an SQ system? Does all this apply to the 12AV just the same, cause I assume it does?

Thanks.

The Zapco 600W amp should be plenty for any SQ system. Basically my comment is that there is flat response from 15-50hz already in the case listed above. A single bandpass filter then would let someone pull that whole 15-50hz level straight down to match the rest of the system. Then it would not only be flat from 15-50hz, but also matched evenly to the rest of the system. The result would be flat from 15hz up to 100hz or higher.

I have actually found that the subs with lower distortion tend to give you that "Chest bass" kind of feeling. For me, the cleaner the signal and output the more i feel it. I have heard a FEW SPL systems and while they did pound, they didn't feel clean and when i have a super clean undistorted bass signal hit me at high power, i can feel it WAY more than distorted.
If that makes any sense.

You are right. The cleaner the signal and the less distortion to it, the more impact. Take a kick drum. You can record the exact sound of the kick drum and if your speakers can reproduce it the same as it was recorded, it will sound the same and will retain all of the original impact, etc. However, if the signal is distorted, compressed, etc, it no longer sounds like the original kick drum.

which of the ae av models is the low end monster? the x or H model?

The AV15H has higher mass and higher motor strength. This will give you more output at tuning in a vented box than the X model, and will result in a peak at that point. Both woofers can get very loud for daily use though.

In a sealed box, your low end output is primarily dominated by the enclosure. The next most important again is mass and motor strength. The H will give you more low end output in a smaller box than the X with the same input power. Overall though they are both limited to the same amount of output at a given frequency as they have the same moving area and same amount of Xmax. It's just a matter of what kind of enclosure volume you have available sealed.

John

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

John, You got a pm by me.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

John, with NO suspension you cannot control your inetria.. this is why compliance/stiffness is important..in huge SPL installs the motors are SO strong they are able to accelerate the mass much faster, the actual change in phase becomes notibally greater as freency increases, the motor has a "lag" when its alternating phase this is because the voltage lags the amperage and vice verser when phase is 180 degrees off, at any point not just at the frequencies Peaks and vallys.. example whould be multipal individual information/sorces.. change in phase this is where inductance hurts transiant response.. inertia is where the suspension is going to come into play.. in alternating current you have that minute time where the lag/lead become lead/lag if there where NO suspenson it would push the mas at a given acceleration from the input and contuniue moving untill the signal alternates in phase 180 degrees..

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Ted Jordan had a whole line of drivers without spiders that were used for full/wide range duty. It can be done. All that is needed is an enclosure, and an amplifier with a good damping factor. In addition to the damping properties of the motor of course.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

inductance is more important in high frequency extention than the actual suspension, because the drivers not suspended as long at the outter most excursion points, while in low frequency its hte oppsite.. the driver doesn't respond to thechange in phases you need something to dampen it to help control inertia... so in short mass kills efficiency simply because of inertia and lowered acceleration... sure your going to have lowered efficiency with a stiffer suspension, but motor force makes up for the efficiency in 2 ways higher B/L and higher powerhandling.. Ill agree thats suspension non lineateries are highly important, just as much as B/l curve but just as imporant if not MORE important is the dampning thats required for the given input/output this menas box sizw tuend port area, even down to accounting for the vechiles own compliance,dampning, and resonance.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Ted Jordan had a whole line of drivers without spiders that were used for full/wide range duty. It can be done. All that is needed is an enclosure, and an amplifier with a good damping factor. In addition to the damping properties of the motor of course.

very poor efficency, and no one set damping is ideal for such a huge bandwidth...

 

[John_E_Janowitz 10+ year member]

Ted Jordan had a whole line of drivers without spiders that were used for full/wide range duty. It can be done. All that is needed is an enclosure, and an amplifier with a good damping factor. In addition to the damping properties of the motor of course.

Very true. Take a look at the Qts of a woofer which is the total damping factor. Now look at the contribution from Qes which is the electrical Q and Qms which is the mechanical Q. If you vary Qes slightly you'll see that Qts changes very proportionally. If you vary Qms slightly, Qts will barely change. That is because the mechanical Q (ie damping from suspension) has such a minor contribution in comparison to the contribution from the motor.

Then take a look at the damping factor of the amp. Most amps now days have more than adequate damping factors. However if you were to get to a point where the amp didn't, there is nothing that a stiffer suspension can do to correct for it.

John

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

4.5 cubes, tone was 37hz

tune/power and how did the woofer respond @ 60hz?

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

For anyone who is interested in the 12" AV subs, i should be getting my AV12-X on tuesday and it will be put in a 2.75 cuft box tuned to 30hz. I will have lots of VIDEO and pictures if anyone is interested in that kind of setup.

I wont be doing any BURPING or bass races, just regular music testing...

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

I am almost 99% certain there were no suspension problems with the driver. The claims that the woofer has no control over 50Hz and only moves forward is not something that can be caused by a spider issue. This is indicative of a DC offset being sent to the woofer. There were absolutely no issues with the woofer we tested last night. John

fluke disagrees with you... tested the voltage both AC and DC.. if it WAS a DC signal changing phase would have resulted in a change in direction.. no such thing happened therefor the output signal isn't DC by nature...need proof, take a battery and go + to + and - to- then swich the poles and see what happens...

also if your going to claim that its the same produce some CMS curves of one with very little play time and than one with 10 hours of play at xmax... i bet MONEY you will se how non linear that suspension really is..

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

fluke disagrees with you... tested the voltage both AC and DC.. if it WAS a DC signal changing phase would have resulted in a change in direction.. no such thing happened there for the output signal isn't DC by nature...

Sorry, but you would need an oscilloscope to test this, a simple DMM will not show it.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

For anyone who is interested in the 12" AV subs, i should be getting my AV12-X on tuesday and it will be put in a 2.75 cuft box tuned to 30hz. I will have lots of VIDEO and pictures if anyone is interested in that kind of setup.
I wont be doing any BURPING or bass races, just regular music testing...

please report back after about 10 hours of play...

 

[Macklessdaddy 10+ year member]

this thread is so complex

no shit,they need to get out more:laugh:

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Sorry, but you would need an oscilloscope to test this, a simple DMM will not show it.

you have NO CLUE what your talking about... its going to measure the signal if its DC.. your talking about a clipped wave, and a meter WILL measure that too, depending on how hard you clipp it...

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Years ago I had a Dynaudio 30W100 that would do the same thing that has been described, the cone would "float" out at higher frequencies under high power. This was in a sealed enclosure in the neighborhood of 3 or 4 cu.ft. The problem turned out to be that the foam surround was a bit too porous and was creating a pressure offset of some type. Once I had the unit reconed with a newer style treated foam surround the problem was non-existent.

I realize in this case the enclosure was vented but based on that experience, I believe the problem is attributed to the enclosure in some regard. Not that it is of low quality or anything to that affect, just circumstantial.

Just food for thought.