Acoustic Elegance AV15

Did you notice any problems with the suspension? I know someone that had his in 3.5 cubes with about 1500 RMS and he had suspension problems.
I am almost 99% certain there were no suspension problems with the driver. The claims that the woofer has no control over 50Hz and only moves forward is not something that can be caused by a spider issue. This is indicative of a DC offset being sent to the woofer. There were absolutely no issues with the woofer we tested last night. The spider is the exact same as it was prior to testing after giving it quite a large amount of abuse last night.

As I said, we'll be doing the tests on the EXACT woofer that papermarker is returning. Yesterday he received a check for $200 along with a UPS return label to get the woofer back to me. If he had it picked up by UPS today it should be in my hands Tuesday.

John

 
I am almost 99% certain there were no suspension problems with the driver. The claims that the woofer has no control over 50Hz and only moves forward is not something that can be caused by a spider issue. This is indicative of a DC offset being sent to the woofer. There were absolutely no issues with the woofer we tested last night. The spider is the exact same as it was prior to testing after giving it quite a large amount of abuse last night.
As I said, we'll be doing the tests on the EXACT woofer that papermarker is returning. Yesterday he received a check for $200 along with a UPS return label to get the woofer back to me. If he had it picked up by UPS today it should be in my hands Tuesday.

John
What is it about your drivers that make them so special that they react to all these strange problems that no other drivers do? I'm having NO HFE issues in my vehicle with any other drivers (except the DIYMA 12,but I expected that, the enclosure I used was one I had laying around, and ~twice the volume of a .707 sealed alignment). Bassfreak hasn't had any other drivers only moving outward above 50 Hz, are his amps special in that they simply don't like the AV drivers and are sending out DC square waves on purpose??? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wow.gif.23d729408e9177caa2a0ed6a2ba6588e.gif

 
I am almost 99% certain there were no suspension problems with the driver. The claims that the woofer has no control over 50Hz and only moves forward is not something that can be caused by a spider issue. This is indicative of a DC offset being sent to the woofer. There were absolutely no issues with the woofer we tested last night. The spider is the exact same as it was prior to testing after giving it quite a large amount of abuse last night.
As I said, we'll be doing the tests on the EXACT woofer that papermarker is returning. Yesterday he received a check for $200 along with a UPS return label to get the woofer back to me. If he had it picked up by UPS today it should be in my hands Tuesday.

John
in case you didn't see it ygpm john..........//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 
Bumpin Buick's box is 4.5cf tuned to 45hz technically. However the port fires up against the back of the vehicle in close proximity to the back hatch door. This essentially extends the apparent length of the port. The guess is that because most of the woofers peaked around 38hz or so, tuning would be 36-38hz. Next time I come down I'll bring the laptop and measure the impedance curve of the woofer in the box to get the exact tuning. This is a case where the placement of the box not only affects the in vehicle response but actually physically alters the tuning of the box. Clearly his system is intended to be an SPL type system. That is what he has been doing all the testing for. If we had time to measure the transfer function in the 4runner and build a box tuned to the frequency where there is the most cabin gain, Bumpin Buick could easily gain another 4-5dB over what we did in a random box with random tuning. Typical SUV transfer functions have a maximum amount of gain slightly higher in frequency than where that box was tuned.

Regardless, the tuning of the box doesn't affect high frequency response much at all. Tuning higher has a very minimal effect at the higher frequencies, but a large effect at tuning. Here is an example. This is a large 5 cubic foot enclosure with tunings of 28, 32, and 38hz.

AV15X_5cf_tunings.png


You can see that there is a difference at and around tuning frequencies, but once you get up to the 70hz range there is virtually no change.

Now lets talk about SQ systems

There are 2 things that affect sound quality specifically with the woofer. One is the response and how flat it is in the vehicle. The other is the amount of distortion produced. It is my goal to create drivers with the lowest amount of distortion possible. To get the lowest amount of distortion with a given woofer in a vehicle , home, etc with that driver means you want the most efficiency in the system. The more output you get with less power input the better. This also gives you more headroom for uncompressed transient peaks. More power means more heat and increases thermal issues and distortion. So, a vented box for a subwoofer will give you much more efficiency at the lowest frequencies than a sealed box. The standard misconception is that you want a sealed box to be "tighter", "faster", etc. However, you get much lower distortion at a given SPL from the vented box.

Now, regarding response, that is another issue to look at. Yes, a low tuned vented box that is flat outside a vehicle is going to have an increase of output down low in frequency in a vehicle. That is an effect of the vehicle regardless of what woofer you ever put in the box. There are then 2 ways to try to flatten response. One, you can try to design your enclosure so the rolloff of the box does the exact opposite of the increase from your vehicle. This isn't very practical though as box rolloff never perfectly matches the transfer function of the vehicle, but is the easiest option and for that reason many people choose to do that. The other option is most ideal, will give the flattest response, lowest distortion, but is more time consuming, more difficult, and requires the use of EQ. This is the same that we do for home theaters, high end recording studios, live sound systems, etc. You design the system to get the maximum amount of clean output you can get, then flatten the response appropriately with EQ. In the end you have the flattest response possible with the lowest distortion.

Now, lets look at getting that flat response in a vehicle. In a typical car you have one initial peak around 50hz range followed by another large peak well below that. In an SUV this will sometimes vary. Here is a transfer function from a mid 90's Escort for example, just like Kenny's.

escort_tf.gif


There is one peak about 50hz and then another down at 20hz. Because of the 2 separate rises in gain it is very difficult to get perfectly flat response without some additional type of EQ. However if you draw a line from 70hz to 30hz the closest approximation you get is about an 18dB per octave rise. A sealed box will drop at 12dB per octave. If you had a sealed box with F3 of 70hz you'd flatten the response some, but still have a slightly rising response at 6dB per octave on the low end. You'd also still have the big bump at about 45hz to contend with.

The ideal situation for flattest response of the bass and lowest distortion is often to go with a tuning that creates a peak to fill in the area between those 2 bumps. In this case tuning to 25hz in 3cf with the aV15X does very well. The following graph has 4 curves. The blue is with a sealed box for the AV15X modeled response. Orange is with the AV15X vented 3cf tuned to 29hz modeled response. Then the green curve is what happens with the sealed AV15X with cabin gain included. The yellow is what happens to the vented with cabin gain included.

AV15H_sealed_incar_vs_anechoic.png


The interesting thing here is that the vented box fills in that dip between the two bumps. The response is +/-3dB from 15hz to 50hz. Distortion for a given SPL is also MUCH lower than a sealed box because the woofer requires only about 20% of the power to get the same SPL's as it does in the sealed box. Excursion is kept to a minimum. Thermal issues are kept to a minimum. All around this is a much lower distortion option. You'll also notice that no matter which box you use the response greatly drops off above 50hz due to the vehicle itself. You can put any woofer in that you wish and the same still happens, it is not an issue with the AV woofers. This is all just general info. If you are looking for SQ only and not concerned about maximum SPL and don't wish to mess with EQ, the sealed box is the way to go. You can always add EQ later to pull out the 50hz bump and taper off the response more if you wish.

The best possible results for SQ though come with the vented box. Again you get a nice flat response 15-50hz. You then have 2 options to fix the bass to the rest of the system. One, you can crossover to your midbass drivers just over 50hz. Then you can simply lower the level of the subwoofer to match the midbass. If you don't have that luxury of having a midbass capable of 50hz, then you can lower the level of that area with a single bandpass filter from 15-50hz to match the rest of the system. You then have MASSIVE amounts of headroom, extremely low distortion bass, and very flat response. This is again not specific to the AV15.

This is all just general information on getting the flattest response in an SQ system. BUT, you can't say you want an SQ system, then change your mind in the middle and say you want it to punch you in the chest and make you feel like you're going to pass out. The two are just not the same system.

John

 
there are several factors that affect how a woofer responds to a given aligment... tuning frequency, port area, and box volumes, the subs compliance(CMS curve important here).. so in short electrical and mechanical dampening.. the suspension stiffness has a much larger role in ported applications.. why? the compliance of the port box and suspension all have to be within a working limit to keep total Q in check, this means there is a limit on both mechanical damping(box size, port area) to mechanical damping(FS/vas/cms curve) the bigger the box the more Peak you have around tuning.. the more port area you have the more Peak you have around tuning..the ports band width becomes much narrower but much more intense in its bandwidth thus rasing efficiency this occurs when port area increases.. just like a low Qes driver does... same happens to when you alter box size.. in other words having too high a box volme lowers complance IE the stiffness of air inside inside the box...

 
gaving to large a port does the same.. there is a much higher compliance meaning dampning rises and air passes easier, allowing hte driver to more efficiently pressure the air. what happens when it too easily mores the air is you loose pressurization.. meaning you simply cannot move enought air to pressurize the medium.. in sort the larger the box and the larger to port the more of a vacumme you have.. seeingas the forward stroke on a woofer pressurizes the caib and creates a vacumme in the box this vacume is already so hgh with the larger box your relying on pressurizing the cabin( a huge hit to SPL peeps) which is ofen much larger than hte box itself, so in short your using the cabin as the box to rely on dampning rearward the sub tries to pressure the box, but the vacumme is so great that it simply cannot increase stiff(lower complaince) to control the movement.. this results in increased excursion but decreased output, and depeding on hte suspension its can competely alter CMS usless..

 
another factors in the motor strenght IE bl^2/RE and actually QTS a lower QES/higher bl^2/re is able to take a given signal and turn the electromotive(power input in wattage) and the perment magnetic field(B/L) easier into mechanical movement which in turns pressurizes and depressizes the air very fast.. what this means is that with the higher compliance suspension, greater motor strength and higher compliance of hte box/port allow the suspension to move extremely easy... so easy thts the CMS/CMS curve isn't adquate to control the cone.. so you have increased excursion not from power increase, but the motor strength as well as excellent elecrical dampning... now a port works excatly like another woofer its have a QMS( mechanical damping) it has a resonant requency(tuning) and it has a compliance(stiff ness of air for the given size) so the larger the port the less denese the air is in that given amount of space... this is hwy for a given port area incresing length alters tuning...

 
papermaker, I'm sorry I'm trying to understand what you said, but I honestly have not one clue what you are talking about for most of the above. Bumpin Buick and I had a discussion about suspension last night. He commented that many drivers have ridiculously stiff suspensions. This allows you to throw massive amounts of power to them without moving them to great distances. That's great if you want to make an indestructible driver that is very inefficient. However if it take a driver 4000W to get the same SPL as another driver with 1000W, what are you gaining? You now have 4x the heat and exponentially higher distortion with the stiffer suspension at the same SPL. The SPL you can get from a system is exactly proportional to how much air you can move. The less power required to move a given amount of air the better.

In a perfect world you want infinite compliance to the suspension. The driver should have 100% control coming from the motor and none from the suspension. This will give the most efficiency and the lowest distortion. However, in the real world you need suspension to keep the coil centered. You want to keep the suspension as soft as possible though while still keeping the coil centered and making it impossible for it to rock. In the AV woofers a Cms of .22 with the stiffest spiders we have does this properly.

There is absolutely no way for a spider to make a woofer only move forward and not backwards. The spider can only slow down the motion of the coil created by the motor. It cannot create any motion of it's own. The motor will move the coil to wherever the amplifier's signal pushes it. If it only moves forward and not backwards, it is because of the signal applied.

Did you send the woofer back out today? Again, testing your exact woofer in Bumpin Buick's setup will clear up a lot.

John

 
papermaker, I'm sorry I'm trying to understand what you said, but I honestly have not one clue what you are talking about for most of the above. Bumpin Buick and I had a discussion about suspension last night. He commented that many drivers have ridiculously stiff suspensions. This allows you to throw massive amounts of power to them without moving them to great distances. That's great if you want to make an indestructible driver that is very inefficient. However if it take a driver 4000W to get the same SPL as another driver with 1000W, what are you gaining? You now have 4x the heat and exponentially higher distortion with the stiffer suspension at the same SPL.  

In a perfect world you want infinite compliance to the suspension. The driver should have 100% control coming from the motor and none from the suspension. This will give the most efficiency and the lowest distortion. However, in the real world you need suspension to keep the coil centered. You want to keep the suspension as soft as possible though while still keeping the coil centered and making it impossible for it to rock. In the AV woofers a Cms of .22 with the stiffest spiders we have does this properly.

There is absolutely no way for a spider to make a woofer only move forward and not backwards. The spider can only slow down the motion of the coil created by the motor. It cannot create any motion of it's own. The motor will move the coil to wherever the amplifier's signal pushes it. If it only moves forward and not backwards, it is because of the signal applied.

Did you send the woofer back out today? Again, testing your exact woofer in Bumpin Buick's setup will clear up a lot.

John
I could give you the biggest bear hug right now.

This is the very topic I've been trying to push with SPL guys and their ultra mega uber stiff spiders. Usually brings up a few of these --->//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif:confused://content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

SQ! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 
The best possible results for SQ though come with the vented box. Again you get a nice flat response 15-50hz. You then have 2 options to fix the bass to the rest of the system. One, you can crossover to your midbass drivers just over 50hz. Then you can simply lower the level of the subwoofer to match the midbass. If you don't have that luxury of having a midbass capable of 50hz, then you can lower the level of that area with a single bandpass filter from 15-50hz to match the rest of the system. You then have MASSIVE amounts of headroom, extremely low distortion bass, and very flat response. This is again not specific to the AV15.

John
John, I do want an SQ system. Didn't understand that last part that starts with "then you can lower the level...."

I have a Zapco amp 600wrms, does that sounds good as a foundation for an SQ system? Does all this apply to the 12AV just the same, cause I assume it does?

Thanks.

 
I have actually found that the subs with lower distortion tend to give you that "Chest bass" kind of feeling. For me, the cleaner the signal and output the more i feel it. I have heard a FEW SPL systems and while they did pound, they didn't feel clean and when i have a super clean undistorted bass signal hit me at high power, i can feel it WAY more than distorted.

If that makes any sense.

 
Both, one is for sealed and the other is suited more for ported. X being ported and H being sealed, from what i understand the H has more motor strength for pushing air in a sealed box.

 
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