Acoustic Elegance AV12-X D2!

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

Sweet, cant wait to see how they perform!

 

[John_E_Janowitz 10+ year member]

Just a quick note on papermaker's woofer that came in about 5min ago. I'll have pictures posted up shortly once i can get them off the camera. The cone is ridiculously bent up. The surround is torn off the cone at one point. The spider is not "worn out", it is actually torn halfway around on one side of the coil from being driven much too far.

The only way for all of the above to happen is simply abuse. The driver has 23mm Xmax and about 30mm travel before the suspension can't physically go any farther. It is not meant to move farther than this. This is more than enough to get high levels of clean output for any SQ type application this woofer was designed for.

If you plan to try to repeatedly drive the woofer past the physical limits, it can and will break. A subsonic filter is necessary in a vented box to prevent over excursion. That is what they are for. Also I feel the need to stress this again, there are reasons the woofer is rated at 1000W and not 1600W and not specifically intended for SPL application.

John

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

What a surprise, Nick from Fi comes into another manufacturer's thread, acts like a dick, gets his *** handed to him and leaves, seems to be a common theme for him.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

What a surprise, Nick from Fi comes into another manufacturer's thread, acts like a dick, gets his *** handed to him and leaves, seems to be a common theme for him.

I had nothing to do with John until he was cutting on some stuff a few weeks back that I read either here or another forum...had something to do with "American made products" is all I remember.

He didn't hand my *** to me in any sense of the term...he never answered my question either. I wanted to know if your average idiot could hear any of that stuff he was talking about when group delay and real world application in the car is nothing short of totally ignored.

The bridges that collapsed in the 1950's and 1960's in California looked great on paper until they built them...then the winds showed what happened when certain things were ignored in the REAL WORLD application...and they collapsed. It looked great in the lab..the models worked beautifully...and when you put it where it was supposed to be..it didn't turn out so real.

I can't help i'm a realist..if you don't like it, tough. I don't sugar coat anything, I call it exactly how it is.

(psssssssssst...which is why I said some time back Car Audio in and of itself has more drama in it then a High School prom...everybody gets sensitive and butt hurt over every thing because a realist says everything is theory that is drawn in conclusion outside of the environment in which the speaker is actually made for which anybody who has done any sort of data sampling knows that its shit at best)

When you gonna start consulting for Boeing there cutie? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[John_E_Janowitz 10+ year member]

for those interested, here are some pics of the woofer papermaker sent back. If someone wants to believe it was build error that caused this, that is your choice. There is however nothing on earth I can do to keep someone from bending the spun aluminum cone, tearing the 100% nomex spider, and ripping the surround off, actually peeling the santoprene in half over most of the detached area.

This is under no circumstances something that happens under normal usage.

John

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

wow, that took a beating :|

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

It's a good looking sub, but there's a big gap between this sub's hype and its ability.

2.5" coil driver rated for 1000w. No.

Aluminum cone + tinsels that aren't woven. No.

Very soft suspension that there have been many reports of people messing up within days. No.

Smearing silicone on the cone to fix the tinsel problem. Laughable at best.

John, I respect your efforts, but this is really a sophomoric attempt at the market you're trying to penetrate. You failed to "idiot-proof" your sub. Seems to me that what you have is a 5-700w driver capable of taking 1000w if you're careful. But, if you rate it at 1000w and put it in the hands of the general car audio crowd, they'll tear it up within hours.

Yes, I'm aware it models oh-so-well, and that it opens up so many possibilities, but in all reality, it is just out of place in the car audio field.

Recommendations:

-Either use woven tinsels or a paper cone.

-Get spiders with some balls.

-Rate the sub at what it will handle day in and day out, with headroom for abuse. You know kids, they'll take a 1000w sub and throw 1,500w at it just because.

-If you're aiming at the car audio market, who cares about extension beyond 100hz?

As for the current models, sell them as replacements in 1970's floor speakers. They seem like they'd fit that bill perfectly. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

I thought everybody would learn something from TC and realize that aluminum cones don't work.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

It's a good looking sub, but there's a big gap between this sub's hype and its ability.
2.5" coil driver rated for 1000w. No.

Aluminum cone + tinsels that aren't woven. No.

Very soft suspension that there have been many reports of people messing up within days. No.

Smearing silicone on the cone to fix the tinsel problem. Laughable at best.

John, I respect your efforts, but this is really a sophomoric attempt at the market you're trying to penetrate. You failed to "idiot-proof" your sub. Seems to me that what you have is a 5-700w driver capable of taking 1000w if you're careful. But, if you rate it at 1000w and put it in the hands of the general car audio crowd, they'll tear it up within hours.

Yes, I'm aware it models oh-so-well, and that it opens up so many possibilities, but in all reality, it is just out of place in the car audio field.

Recommendations:

-Either use woven tinsels or a paper cone.

-Get spiders with some balls.

-Rate the sub at what it will handle day in and day out, with headroom for abuse. You know kids, they'll take a 1000w sub and throw 1,500w at it just because.

-If you're aiming at the car audio market, who cares about extension beyond 100hz?

As for the current models, sell them as replacements in 1970's floor speakers. They seem like they'd fit that bill perfectly. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Well, it has been shown that it can handle 1000W and more no problem, bumpin buick threw more than that in one and it worked fine. 2.5" coild can handle a lot of power, you can throw much more than that on a 2.5" coil without burning the coil, but in a properly designed driver there is no need to.

The tinsels should work fine how they are now, but yes there are better ways to accomplish this, woven would work well, however a woven tinsel creates compliance cure irregularities. The current spiders also work fine for their intended purpose. Not everyone wants to be like Fi and build a 3KW driver and rate it at 1KW and lose efficiency, add mass, and raise Le through the roof. The new Mag V4 is rated at 1000 watts and even 1100 could destroy it, again, it is after a different market than the Fi type drivers.

Finally, the AV line isn't specifically targeted for car use, it is more targeted for home theater use but it just so happens to work in a car. Anyway, that is enough for now.

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

I thought everybody would learn something from TC and realize that aluminum cones don't work.

Apparently not.

I've refrained from poasting in this thread up until now mainly because it's been a shitfest I didn't want to even get involved in.

But that's really one poorly designed sub IMO. Santoprene? ya gotta be kiddn me //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Aim this to the home audio market, not here. They may be fooled by smoke and mirrors way easier than the car audio people.

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

This sub was never aimed at the car audio community. (atleast when i was interested in buying it) I just heard that it sounded amazing and wanted it for my CAR. I asked john how it works in cars and he said it works really good, but normally they are home theater subs. Check the AVS forums, huge threads about those subs among other HT subs.

But i must say. This sub works Great for car audio if you know what the hell you are doing. Maybe john will make a specific car audio line with a few tweaks line woven spider and a few misc changes here and there but why should john change his driver so he can just underrate it to protect against abuse? If you dont know what you are doing then there was never any reason to look at an AE sub to begin with, go check out some kickers or alpines if you want to play with toys.

You dont see people with mags feeding them 1600w...

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

I'm just saying... I don't doubt that the voice coil can handle 1000w thermally. The problem is... well, the rest of the soft parts.

If 1600w was able to rip the surround, rip the spider AND fold the cone on a "1000w" sub.... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/hilarious.gif.02a037aad04aa96f19982b298a3d70a8.gif

I'm just saying, it may be able to handle 1000w for a while, but with all the reports of sagging suspension (Even due to GRAVITY! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif), theres no way it should be rated to take 1000w daily.

There's nothing wrong with headroom. Subs have to be able to withstand some abuse. I have abused the SHIT out of some subs, giving 2-3x their rated power and NEVER folded a cone or ripped a surround. Everything from a piece of shit Pep Boys 8" to a nasty Kenwood 10" or a 15" L7.

If someone can completely total a 1000w sub with 1600w, that is laughable.

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

Dude, this is a completely HAND made driver intended for HT use. Its called Acoustic Elegance, not RETARDED BASS RESONANCE...

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

I'm just saying... I don't doubt that the voice coil can handle 1000w thermally. The problem is... well, the rest of the soft parts.
If 1600w was able to rip the surround, rip the spider AND fold the cone on a "1000w" sub.... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/hilarious.gif.02a037aad04aa96f19982b298a3d70a8.gif

I'm just saying, it may be able to handle 1000w for a while, but with all the reports of sagging suspension (Even due to GRAVITY! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif), theres no way it should be rated to take 1000w daily.

There's nothing wrong with headroom. Subs have to be able to withstand some abuse. I have abused the SHIT out of some subs, giving 2-3x their rated power and NEVER folded a cone or ripped a surround. Everything from a piece of shit Pep Boys 8" to a nasty Kenwood 10" or a 15" L7.

If someone can completely total a 1000w sub with 1600w, that is laughable.

giving it 60% more power than it was designed for? I would say that would damage it. Put 60% more voltage to a houshold appliance and see how it holds up, not so good. but 1600 watts on the Mag V4 and you would shred the thing, no doubt and it is a 1000 watt sub. Also, EVERY subs suspension sags due to gravity.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

Well, it has been shown that it can handle 1000W and more no problem, bumpin buick threw more than that in one and it worked fine. 2.5" coild can handle a lot of power, you can throw much more than that on a 2.5" coil without burning the coil, but in a properly designed driver there is no need to.
The tinsels should work fine how they are now, but yes there are better ways to accomplish this, woven would work well, however a woven tinsel creates compliance cure irregularities. The current spiders also work fine for their intended purpose. Not everyone wants to be like Fi and build a 3KW driver and rate it at 1KW and lose efficiency, add mass, and raise Le through the roof. The new Mag V4 is rated at 1000 watts and even 1100 could destroy it, again, it is after a different market than the Fi type drivers.

Finally, the AV line isn't specifically targeted for car use, it is more targeted for home theater use but it just so happens to work in a car. Anyway, that is enough for now.

You sure are stuck on an inductance kick.

That simply proves that you believe everything that you read and take it to heart as the bible and do not question it because your bible says so.

Don't believe all the fancy white papers and laboratory testing and take it as the bible as this is the only way. Get to where you ask questions, dare to be different, and draw conclusions from testing yourself. Instead of believing everything a graph says..or is supposed to say. Making a sub with low inductance is very simple...it has to be put in a certain criteria though.

There's a 2.5 ton ford rollback beside my shop, was built in 1969 and has over a million miles on it. Everything on the thing is heavy old iron. It was built and built to last and be there from now on. Every single vehicle that you buy now is very 'technologically advanced' but is all disposable and made to be thrown away after 5-10 years of use (some last longer, most don't).

That thing was built back when it meant something to have an American product. Those workers built those trucks and stuff with our raw materials that came from here. Now they've all sold out to Mexico..nobody want's to buy a GM product now because yes it is an "American" Brand but it is all made in Mexico and outsourced...and they break if not before the warranty is out right after it is out so the end user has to buy something else new again.

It's about taking pride in what you do..and figure out what is wrong and what is right. This comes through time, trial, and error. There is a very good reason for every single thing that we do. If you want to be on 'the cutting edge of new technology' that's cool. The thing is low inductance on a speaker isn't new technology...it reminds me of a Marketing campaign that Heinz tried to do. Ultimately it is just a color of Ketchup that Heinz tried to push and it failed miserably because they attempted to change the Socially accepted norm..but we all know how that worked out and we don't see green and purple ketchup on the shelves at the grocery store. Because...every American knows that Ketchup is red.