Acoustic Elegance AV12-X D2!

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

Thus you fail to comprehend the difference between thermal power handling and mechanical power handling, and the factors that can affect the mechanical power handling.
See above.

Also, I guess I fail to see the fault in the design for failing when overdriven by 60%

Sag is pretty common knowledge in most other communities when mounting the driver horizontally.

Adire used to have a white paper about it on their website, and explained formulas for calculating which drivers (based on specs) should probably avoid being up/down fired.

I guess it's more laughable you were not aware of this //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

Then I guess you aren't very good at abuse //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

It's not difficult to exceed the mechanical limits of a driver.

You're inability to comprehend much of the information present in this thread is what's laughable.

You totally missed my first point. I said that its cool that the sub can handle 1000w thermally, but it doesn't mean shit if it can't handle it mechanically.

Again, I will repeat that this woofer really isn't suited for car audio use, and I don't understand why it's being marketed as such. Why?

Car audio subs are generally more likely to be abused. If a kid is given a 1000w sub and a 1000w amp, there's a good chance that he'll clip the shit out of the amp to make the sub louder. On top of that, if music with gratuitous amounts of bass is played at high volume, that is torturous to a sub's suspension.

I see the AV as being a home sub primarily- from what I've read, it has soft suspension and doesn't fare well under continuous beating. Like I said, a movie filled with explosions and other bass-intensive scenes won't abuse a sub as badly as the entirety of a rap album. Why? Because in movies, intense bass is short-lived and sparse. On top of that, people tend not to keep their HT setups ridiculously loud because of neighnors.

Anyone who wants to put a sub on the shelf for the car audio market needs to understand that their woofers will be abused. If your sub can't withstand abuse for even a couple days, you're going to see a very high failure rate.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

That's a bit of a stretch there squeek //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif
you know better then to make that comparison.

How is that a stretch? It's following the exact line of reasoning Nick used.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

You totally missed my first point. I said that its cool that the sub can handle 1000w thermally, but it doesn't mean shit if it can't handle it mechanically.

And yet, you continue to fail to understand the factors that influence mechanical power handling. It isn't a hard-lined, slap a number on it statistic. You can not create a generalized mechanical power handling spec for every scenario the driver will encounter. I can guarantee you there are not many, if any, subs on the market that will handle their rated power in my installation. Why? Because I'm not using an enclosure.

So when I damage a 1kw driver with 400w in my installation, I should go and bash the manufacturer I presume?

Again, I will repeat that this woofer really isn't suited for car audio use, and I don't understand why it's being marketed as such. Why?

Again, I fail to see why the driver isn't suitable for car audio.

Car audio subs are generally more likely to be abused. If a kid is given a 1000w sub and a 1000w amp, there's a good chance that he'll clip the shit out of the amp to make the sub louder.

That isn't the manufacturer's fault; that is the idiot users fault.

When the driver is used within it's intended range of use, how many failures have occured?

On top of that, if music with gratuitous amounts of bass is played at high volume, that is torturous to a sub's suspension.

And it's the users responsibility to understand how to use the product they purchase. If they blow a driver because of their own ignorance or intentional abuse (applying 1600w to a 1kw driver is intentional abuse), don't be surprised if the driver fails.

Anyone who wants to put a sub on the shelf for the car audio market needs to understand that their woofers will be abused.

That's idiotic at best.

And that is what a warranty exclusions are for. If you use the driver outside of it's intended use, and damage occurs.....you are the one who messed up, not the manufacturer.

Go grab a random driver from your local dealer, wreck the suspension by admittedly driving the suspension beyond it's mechanical limits and/or by supplying it with well beyond it's rated power handling.....then take it back and see what they say.

Manufacturers design a driver for a specific purpose and specific use. If you don't know how to use the driver, or can not use it within that intended use, then you're SOL when damage occurs.

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

John admits he didn't idiot-proof his sub. I understand that mechanical limits are very much influenced by the enclosure, but there seems to be a large amount of complaining from people who used them in pretty normal applications. From what I've read, we're not looking at people who put their 12" sub in a 6 cube box tuned to 50hz and then played 15hz tones.

The point I'm trying to drive home is, when you don't idiot-proof your sub, you end up with pissed off customers. I had a piece of shit Kenwood sub, rated for 150w RMS, yet I gave it 400w on a daily basis for a few months. That's over twice its rated power. I gave a 15" L7, rated at 750w, 2,000w on a daily basis for 6 months and it still worked fine when I sold it. If customers can break a sub within days with a modest amount more power than the driver is rated for, well you have a problem.

And I find your brand of argument to be hysterical. Condescension and insults embedded within an argument add no value, yet in any argument I've ever seen you get in on cacom, you resort to it. And that is poor form.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

but there seems to be a large amount of complaining from people who used them in pretty normal applications.

The mechanical power handling of the driver can vary in normal applications. Just because it's rated to handle 1kw thermally, doesn't mean it will handle that much mechanically in "normal" enclosures.

But, how many drivers have failed the way the one owned by papermaker did when driven with 1kw or under?

If you significantly over drive a speaker and you damage it, that is NO fault of the manufacturer especially when you should be intelligent enough to know that you are risking damage at such levels.

The point I'm trying to drive home is, when you don't idiot-proof your sub, you end up with pissed off customers.

Only the ones who aren't intelligent enough to understand that when you overdrive your subwoofer, and you damage it as a result, it's your own dumb fault.

If customers can break a sub within days with a modest amount more power than the driver is rated for, well you have a problem.

Modest?

Go drive 60% over the speed limit, and then try explain to the officer how it was only a "modest" amount faster than the posted speed limit.

And I find your brand of argument to be hysterical. Condescension and insults embedded within an argument add no value, yet in any argument I've ever seen you get in on cacom, you resort to it. And that is poor form.

I honestly don't give a shit how you feel about it.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

That's a bit of a stretch there squeek //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif
you know better then to make that comparison.

No, it was the exact logic that Nick was using so either Nick's argument is shit too or they are both valid and therefor Kicker >> Fi.

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

I cant believe im reading this...

Anyone who thinks the manufacturer should be at fault if a driver breaks from being abused is an idiot.

Hey, why dont you run your amps at 60% over power rating and when they break demand a refund for their neglect of idiot proofing the amp..

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

Kudos to John for handling this as the better man.

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

No, it was the exact logic that Nick was using so either Nick's argument is shit too or they are both valid and therefor Kicker >> Fi.

I never once saw Nick mention Kicker, yet it's the compairison both you and squeak agree on? Interesting.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

I never once saw Nick mention Kicker, yet it's the compairison both you and squeak agree on? Interesting.

No, Nick mentioned that the Q has won championships and that makes it the ultimate driver. squeek pointed out that the L7 has won more than twice as many championships as the Q so it must be the better sounding driver. It's the exact same logic.

What pisses me off is that Nick comes into threads about other manufacturer's products and berates them, says they are crappy et. al when the other manufacturers don't go into every Fi thread and point out how cheap and shitty their drivers are. Really low life business tactics IMO.

 

[Koon 10+ year member]

does anyone have reviews on the 15" AV-x?

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

does anyone have reviews on the 15" AV-x?

Mine was a 15X, but you know my opinion.....

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

What pisses me off is that Nick comes into threads about other manufacturer's products and berates them, says they are crappy et. al when the other manufacturers don't go into every Fi thread and point out how cheap and shitty their drivers are. Really low life business tactics IMO.

Actually I think Nick has zero issues with John or his products, he just doesn't like you //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Actually I think Nick has zero issues with John or his products, he just doesn't like you //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I could care less to be honest, he is a complete dick head and talks out of his *** 90% of the time.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

I never once saw Nick mention Kicker, yet it's the compairison both you and squeak agree on? Interesting.

Nick said;

"It's funny Fi subs sound like a wet fart..If I remember right we've got 3 world title SQ cars running the subs? ......So tell me there slick, How many IASCA/USACi/MECA world championship cars are running low inductance and/or xbl^2 equipped woofers? I'll be waiting for that one." [Emphasis mine]

Since Nick wanted to compare the SQ of the Fi to low Le/XBL^2 drivers based on championships, and was apparently attempting to indicate the Q was a better driver because it won all of 3 whole championships ( //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif )........I pointed out that continuing that logic and comparing the L7 to Fi on the same basis results in the L7 being the "better sounding driver" since it has more championships and was used frequently in very competitive and critical classes.

In other words......I was pointing out he was using a straw-man argument that he did not want to continue down without making his position look even worse.

Actually I think Nick has zero issues with John or his products, he just doesn't like you //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

He seems to indicate otherwise;

I had nothing to do with John until he was cutting on some stuff a few weeks back that I read either here or another forum...had something to do with "American made products" is all I remember.

Which tells me he has some sort of vendetta that he was attempting to continue in this thread......with every attempt resulting in him being politely put in his place by John //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Since he's such a "realist".......he should really learn when not to open his mouth or be prepared to place his foot in it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif Because that's all he's accomplished with the petty arguments he's attempted to start with John in this thread. I don't know the guy personally other than surfing the same general forums for the past 5 or so years........but over the past few weeks my e-respect for him has dwindled to nothing. Not that it matters much, I suppose.