Who has lost faith in religion?

[Raven 10+ year member]

I just found out my church, which I have been unable to attend for months, is closing it's doors because of the lack of people going. I am so bummed out.

 

[DBfan187 5,000+ posts]

If it matters at all, I'm hairy and I just ate a bananna. Then I scratched myself.

oooooo aaaaahahhaahhaaa eieieieieie

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

I just found out my church, which I have been unable to attend for months, is closing it's doors because of the lack of people going. I am so bummed out.

Oh the irony //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[DBfan187 5,000+ posts]

Starting from left to right: profilepower, Mazdaspeed99, and JL_w6.

Photo courtesty of NjccBflo.

 

[jujumantb 10+ year member]

Well, there's as much evidence to support the big bang as there is to support creationism. None. I find it interesting that ever since atheism has existed, every atheist has failed to prove God doesn't exist. The same that a faith based religion can't logically prove God's existance. Being immortal, all powerful, all seeing, and all knowing, if God decides he wants people to follow based on faith, you can be sure he's not going to let anyone or anything prove He exists or does not with logic.

The big bang theory is just that, a theory. And how is it interestiong that nobody can prove a god doesnt exist? Can you prove that you youself exist? Descarte would give you some crap about how since he can reason, he exists, yet its all unable to be prooven We are into philosophy here and there is no hard facts in the subject. Just like your audio system, if religion makes you happy, thats all that matters. I would personally love to think there is a fluffy place in the clouds where I can live happily after death, but I cant get myself to believe something so outrageous. If everyone around you had told you since day one of your life that you were a part of somebody's dream and don't really exist, I'd bet you'd believe that aswell. My point is that you were raised to be taught this stuff. Can you prove the movie "the matrix" isnt true? Really gets ya thinking doesnt it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

weres franksurred our forum theologian dangit!!!

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/hilarious.gif.02a037aad04aa96f19982b298a3d70a8.gif Late obviously! You seem to be holding down the fort just fine nonetheless. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/thumbsup.gif.3287b36ca96645a13a43aff531f37f02.gif BTW, it's FRRAKsurred (pronounced fractured). //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif Didn't realize I'd made a reputation for myself already...LOL!

Wow, there is so much stuff to address I don't know where to start. I'm REEEAlly itching to get into all the evolution/creation stuff, but for now I want to address more important issues.

In a world where there seems to be so much tragedy, it is understandable to wonder "where is God in all of this?" The whole "why do bad things happen to good people?" question has been a stumbling block for a lot of people, believers and otherwise. There are no easy answers, but there are answers. I'll try to highlight a few.

I know many who have lost loved one's before they were ready to give them up. Shot, who is EVER ready to give up a loved one? The thing is, death is a part of life, it happens and it is never enjoyable. When we are hurt and angry, for whatever reason, we all want some one or some thing to blame. God is usually the easiest to point the finger at. After all He is supposed to be loving and all powerful, why doesn't He just "fix it" all? Even people who don't believe in God, when something bad happens, all of a sudden it's like they will believe just enough to blame him for something they don't agree with just so they can vent in a easy direction. However, when something good happens, all of a sudden God doesn't exist.

Let me ask you a few questions. First, if there is a God and He created all things, don't you think He has the right to do whatever He sees fit, whether we agree with it or not? Would making everything easy and comfortable for us really be "loving?" Is He the only power out there? Are there other possibilities that could be behind the things we want to blame on God?

My first question may sound harsh to somebody who just lost some one they love, but wouldn't it be true? What most people don't realize is that, just because He can doesn't mean He does. Look around you at all the people who treat God like dirt, have no time for Him, curse Him, hurt others, etc. Even His own followers who go around telling everybody they are a "Christian" but are so self-centered that their lives are making God look bad. If God was so vindictive that He was just going to start taking people out, don't you think He'd start with them? The fact is God set up a natural process the life here on earth operates in, and while He certainly does intervene in more cases then He will ever get credit for, it is not in our best interest for Him to intervene in every case. Do you think we would grow or become wiser or stronger if we were spared from any bad things happening to us? As I said in another thread, God is interested in our character for more then He is our comfort. Does that mean He doesn't delight in our happiness and provide us good times as well? Of course not. The Bible is filled with examples of How God delights in His people, so much so He sent His only Son to make a way for us to be with Him again! If you've ever played sports then you know that your Coach will encourage you AND challenge you. He will ask you do things that will help you become better, but may not be very enjoyable at the time, in fact may be down right painful. God did not spare His own Son from the hurts and pains of this life. Jesus lost loved ones, He was betrayed by some of His closest most trusted friends. He suffered in ways we will never know, and He did so out of love! Would a life of complete comfort and ease make better people of anybody? The answer is no. The Bible says God takes what was "meant for evil and turns it around and uses it for the good." Amoung other things, people who have been through tragedy can now help others who endure similar tragedy. They are equipped like no one else would be. If you've ever had a problem that nobody seemed to understand, then you can appreciate that.

One more point I'd like to make about losing a loved one. Those Christians who have died at comparitively early ages are in a much better place, they are not hurting at ALL! We certainly miss them, but do you think God was being cruel when He took them off this rock and ushered them into paradise?

The last point I want to bring up, is God is not the only power out there. He is the greatest, but He has an enemy. Once His most powerful angel, Lucifer tried to usurp God's throne and now hates all that God loves because he and his followers were cast out. He was then renamed Satan (deceiver) and much of what gets blamed on God is the work of him and his fallen angels (demons). Much of that is brought into this world through the freedom of choice afforded to mankind. God has given us this world to manage in His stead (explained in Genesis) and He chooses to do most of what He does here through us. He wants us to be a part of the process, much like we train up our children and allow them to help us in things that we could do better and faster, but so that they can learn and grow, we involve them. Likewise, God invovles us. The problem is freedom of choice is not just given to those who obey God, it is also given to those who do not. God does not want robots and you would never appreciate being made to believe or feel a certain way, so as long as we are on this earth, we will have to deal with those who's decisions can and do affect our lives. Some times painfully. Does that mean God will not interfer? Sure He will, if it is in the best interest. If some one is on their knees interceding (i.e. being part of that process that He directed us to be a part of). But some times He will allow it because some needed change can be brought out of it. From His perspective, this life is not the end, not even the biggest part. It is a pre-cursor, a boot camp for what is to come. He sees a much bigger picture and He has a plan for how it will all work out. His ways and His decisions are not always going to make sense to us, but He has proven through out history that His love is real and His wisdom is perfect. I don't believe this because I have "blind faith," I believe it because I have trusted Him, stepped out in faith and consistently seen Him answer me, even in miraculous ways. I have been raised in the Church all my life, a Christian for almost 20 years. I have gone through countless doubts, rebellions and fits of blame as I grew, but God has patiently, lovingly brought me to a place of understanding and healing in each one. Looking back on situations I blamed God for, I can see so much good that came out of them, that though I don't understand all the reasons as to why it had to happen, I can see the ultimate difference it made for the better.

 

[Raven 10+ year member]

Amen. And Amen. I used to write a log. Basically. Wrote to God about anything. I gave him Hell. You go back and read about it and think "Why the &*%$ did I blame God for that?" It's all relative. I think part of being born into sin is a little voice in the back of head saying God is a scapegoat. Something bad happens, God did it.

Oh, and I DID read all that. It's just impossible for me to give a better response.

Oh, and I should mention this.

"It is known that there are an infinte number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely products of a deranged imagination."

- Douglas Adams

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

yea that whole primordial soup theory, sorry can't buy it. sure you can make organic materials out of basic components....but how the he!l does that turn into the world and everything in it? i dunno this is the type of cr@p that makes me wanna skip my bio lecture every m w f...all they ever talk about is evolution

The "primordial soup" idea, though it is still in most school books, is not accepted by the general scientific community any more, primarily because the test that theory was based on was a fraud.

In 1953 Stanley Miller did an experiement to try and prove that the atmosphere believed to be present "in the beginning" supported the right mixture of elements to create life. He shot electricity through that atmosphere and created amino acid. This was heralded as a huge discovery in it's day. Miller used a hydrogen rich mixture of methane, amonia and water vapor. A combination widely accepted at that time. Obviously no one was there to say what chemicals were present and what were not, but as science has learned their conclusions have changed. Today this is not at all what the evidence suggests or was believed to be present. Science magazine (amoung others) dismissed Miller's experiement in 1995 saying "the early atmosphere looked nothing like the Miller-Urey simulation" (John Cohen, "Novel Center Seeks to Add Spark to Origins of Life," Science 270, 1925-26). Scientist today believe that there would have been very little hydrogen in the atmosphere at that time because it would have escaped into space. Every let go of a helium ballon outside? Hydrogen is lighter yet. What is believed to have existed at this point "consisted of carbon dioxide, nitrogen and water vapor" says Jonathan Wells, Phd, Phd (yes two of them). Author of "Icons of Evolution" amoung others, Prophesor at Discovery Institute, and who's credentials are too many to list but feel free to Google him if you're curious. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif Wells is merely a recent example, geochemists and biochemists like Marcel Florkin were dismissing this experiement in the early 70's, saying it "has been abandoned" ("Ideas and Experiments in the Field of Prebiological Chemical Evolution," Comprehensive Biochemistry 29B [1975], 231-60) When the experiement was re-simulated using the these components, guess what resulted... Formaldehyde and Cyanide (Lee Strobel, "The Case For A Creator," Zondervan, 37-38)! Though many text books omit this and simply state that though Miller's experiment was inaccurate, an accurate experiement still produces "organic molecules." Well's went on to say that the closest thing to a "orgainc molecule" even the best organic chemists can come up with is "embalming fluid." Now tell me, how much life do you think imbalming fluid is going to support? Any chemists want to elaborate for us?

Initially Scientists believed that Darwin's theory of a common ancester gradually evolving into all the various species of today. A far cry from the Bible's account of abrupt creation of all those same varieties of life. Today, the fossil record has failed to offer up consistnet example's of "transitional" species, and what pathetically few it has have in most cases not stood up to scrutiny. What it has proven however, is that life seemed to appear abruptly, with all forms of life present from the beginning...hence the "Big Bang" theory. Now to me, that sounds more and more like the Biblical account. Scientists who don't want to deal with the possibility of a designer, particularly one who will one day hold us all to account for what we've done, will never admit that, but the evidence speaks for itself.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/ready2go.gif.6557fa3d88b9eaca9c7b8efb9cbd02ed.gif

 

[btnhfan 5,000+ posts]

Hey thanks Fraksurred for posing all this info.

Man I didnt know the thread would turn out to be like this.

I guess I just have a problem believing in what I view as a "blind faith."

 

[flakko 5,000+ posts]

The "primordial soup" idea, though it is still in most school books, is not accepted by the general scientific community any more, primarily because the test that theory was based on was a fraud.
In 1953 Stanley Miller did an experiement to try and prove that the atmosphere believed to be present "in the beginning" supported the right mixture of elements to create life. He shot electricity through that atmosphere and created amino acid. This was heralded as a huge discovery in it's day. Miller used a hydrogen rich mixture of methane, amonia and water vapor. A combination widely accepted at that time. Obviously no one was there to say what chemicals were present and what were not, but as science has learned their conclusions have changed. Today this is not at all what the evidence suggests or was believed to be present. Science magazine (amoung others) dismissed Miller's experiement in 1995 saying "the early atmosphere looked nothing like the Miller-Urey simulation" (John Cohen, "Novel Center Seeks to Add Spark to Origins of Life," Science 270, 1925-26). Scientist today believe that there would have been very little hydrogen in the atmosphere at that time because it would have escaped into space. Every let go of a helium ballon outside? Hydrogen is lighter yet. What is believed to have existed at this point "consisted of carbon dioxide, nitrogen and water vapor" says Jonathan Wells, Phd, Phd (yes two of them). Author of "Icons of Evolution" amoung others, Prophesor at Discovery Institute, and who's credentials are too many to list but feel free to Google him if you're curious. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif Wells is merely a recent example, geochemists and biochemists like Marcel Florkin were dismissing this experiement in the early 70's, saying it "has been abandoned" ("Ideas and Experiments in the Field of Prebiological Chemical Evolution," Comprehensive Biochemistry 29B [1975], 231-60) When the experiement was re-simulated using the these components, guess what resulted... Formaldehyde and Cyanide (Lee Strobel, "The Case For A Creator," Zondervan, 37-38)! Though many text books omit this and simply state that though Miller's experiment was inaccurate, an accurate experiement still produces "organic molecules." Well's went on to say that the closest thing to a "orgainc molecule" even the best organic chemists can come up with is "embalming fluid." Now tell me, how much life do you think imbalming fluid is going to support? Any chemists want to elaborate for us?

Initially Scientists believed that Darwin's theory of a common ancester gradually evolving into all the various species of today. A far cry from the Bible's account of abrupt creation of all those same varieties of life. Today, the fossil record has failed to offer up consistnet example's of "transitional" species, and what pathetically few it has have in most cases not stood up to scrutiny. What it has proven however, is that life seemed to appear abruptly, with all forms of life present from the beginning...hence the "Big Bang" theory. Now to me, that sounds more and more like the Biblical account. Scientists who don't want to deal with the possibility of a designer, particularly one who will one day hold us all to account for what we've done, will never admit that, but the evidence speaks for itself.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/ready2go.gif.6557fa3d88b9eaca9c7b8efb9cbd02ed.gif

wow...thats lotsa stuff...are you like a pastor or something??

 

[pw91686 10+ year member]

Do you know what faith is?

You won't lose faith if you truly have faith. With faith, comes repentence and commitment of a life for God. If you are a Christian and you have faith in God, this means that you believe that God exists, you believe that God created everything and set it in motion, and believe that God reigns above all. We have to realize that God does reign above all and the things that happen in this world are beyond our comprehension. It is too much for us to understand. Everything happens for a reason. I can't explain it, or why, but I have faith in God and it doesn't just fall apart because of a tsunami or a war.

 

[Diplexers 10+ year member]

I find it funny that you catogarize "people who belive in god" as non scientific. I do belive in evolution/adaption it happens all the time. But I do not belive in man and everything else for that matter coming from one entetty. Evolving from one form into millions of others is a hard thing to belive. Just as you see faith and god hard to belive. Every religion has one thing or the other that is hard to belive. Be it science, christian, catholic, buddist.
Every one will have something to say about another religion. It's what you say about yours that shows who you really are.

But, do you believe in spell check? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 

[james33440 10+ year member]

Everyone, Jesus shed his blood for our sins.....look at how our world is today....it's being overtaken by Satan and his demons left and right....some Christians and preachers or pastors are afraid to come out of their Church to try to Save people. Yes, I am talking about Christians now! The supposively followers of Jesus.

Jesus said that we had the power to heal the sick just like he did but yet we as Christians and then those pastors are just sitting and "playing" Church every Sunday (I actually go several days a week - I believe that you see who truly is a Christian when they attend Church other than Sunday) and are just afraid to claim our territory!

Remember again, God brought his Son, Jesus, down to earth to die for our sins so we don't go to hell. All we have to do is live right (Holy) and accept Jesus for what he has done. Why is that so hard for people to understand? So many people would never do drugs or anything else that would harm them yet after a couple of times of asking them they will eventually try it just to see how it feels. So, why is it so hard for someone to do something that is right and that will make you feel so much better than anything else in this world???

One BIG problem in the Church today is that so many pastors and preachers aren't doing their job that it reflects on everyone else, especially those whom are doing what the Word of GOD tells them to do....it's sad I tell you and I just pray that GOD has mercy on those preachers and pastors.....

 

[Diplexers 10+ year member]

I believe in chimichangas. They taste great with Dr. Pepper. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

wow...thats lotsa stuff...are you like a pastor or something??

LOL. No, I just read a bit.

Jesus has made a dramatic difference in my life. I cannot even begin to express all the things He has saved me from. He has been faithful to me when I was absolutely brutal towards Him. That kind of love affects you. I just want to share it with others so they can know it to.