What is the difference between a Profile amp and a McIntosh amp???

[Pl8er 5,000+ posts]

I think that you misunderstood my point. The engineer will design the amp such that the components used to make it can be at either end of the allowable spec tolerance for that component and the amp will still achieve a minimum level of performance. The end result is that if the finished amp works on the test bench it will at least make the min spec with the most out, worst case. If the components aren't at the edge of tolerance, the amp will perfomr much better. The difference between the best amp off the line and the worst amp off the line might be pretty large, but the worst one will make advertised spec. Chances are, however that you will get something that exceeds the advertised spec because the components are closer to the spec value than the extremes of the tolerance.
Once you move to the more expensive amps, the variance between the best and worst becomes very small. You get a known quantity every time, right around spec. This is mostly from the use to tight tolerance (read expensive) components used in the construction. Are they inherently better or more reliable because of this? Not really, just more consistant in their performance from one example to another. With the more budget minded amps there will be a larger variance between copies but all will at least make spec and most will exceed it comfortably. It's hoe you go about cutting costs with the design.

If you start with a quality design and use proven manufacturing techniques, the amp should require almost no attention. Plain and simple McIntosh charges for the name. They are proud of their amps and charge accordingly. They place a lot higher value on them that I ever would. Don't care if I had money to burn, still wouldn't buy them. Much rather spend the money on something i can hear.

I get what you're saying. I honestly would never pay retail for a mac either (nor would I have my tru right now if I didn't get it for less than 200). You do pay a large sum of money for that name.

I can't say that I don't feel that there is benefits to high quality though. You keep talking about the tolerance more in the aspects of power. But I'm thinking of all of the specs.

I think it is partially due to the industry I work in (high purity sputtering targets with ultra tight specs) but for me, I do look at each component and try to get better than average on everything. If someone asks me if the wire makes an audible difference, I would say for the most part no, BUT, I still will buy high end cables and speaker wire for the simple reason that there is going to be more variance in lower quality things (and more of a likelyhood that they could impact the sound).

I think of it as this. If the wire cause a .05% decrease in clarity and the amp reduces the clarity and the RCA's are causing slight problems in of there own, each is insignificant (but together is enough to cause an audible difference). When you get to the end result though your great speakers are only being given a half way decent signal. By controlling each component and trying to get as close to the spec as possible, you *SHOULD* end up with something close to what left the CD.

Now I'm more of an SQ guy and I could see where having more power (getting away from reference) could be a great thing, but I want things to be a certain way. *ponders* after typing all of this I have come to the conclusion that I am totally Anal retentive HA HA.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

No problem with being anal about your hobbies, most real hobbyists are very much so, myself included. I just choose to be anal about things that matter.

As far as design goes, I'm not just talking about power specs either. THD, s/n, FR, etc... are all spec'd and should all be good on any decent amp. The other trick to getting a SQ oriented system dialed in on a budget is to get a lot more power than you think you will ever use and set the gains really low. That way THD is going to be really low, even with a budget amp. If the amp will do 200w with 1% THD is will do significantly less than that when only asked to do 100w. I've also never seen an amp that had a s/n issue that couldn't be attributed to gain setting.

I'm not an SPL guy by any means, SQ through and through. There are things that you can spend a ton on for no audible benefit compared to a more budget minded approach. Amps are one of those things assuming that you know what you're doing. Cables are another. Build quality is really about all I care about because even the cheapest cable will not have a measurable effect on the signal over audio freqs.

 

[garrettpf 10+ year member]

lmao, so people that say the Mac sounds better is just trying to justify the price? So then it would be said that people that say there is no difference are simply trying to justify thier cheap crap right?

I have had a Mac amp and running from a Mac HU. Also running through a/d/s/ 336is speakers. I have never listened to such a clean sounding system in a car in my life. I replaced both Mac pieces since they did not have the control I wanted. And I must say I do miss the SQ.

Don't even get me started in the difference with wire. Your system, be it home or mobile, will only sound as good as the weakest link. Do you want to take the chance by purchasing cheap cables? I used to sell Mac equipment (along with Krell, Sunfire, Golden Tube Audio...) and for my home system I spent several months listening to systems with my home speakers and different cables to go along with it. Oddly enough I set the limit (on my specific system) at cables that cost $2500 for each front speaker (yes $5000 total). My next step from there was $7000 each. There was little to no discernable difference at that price point. Again, for my system. I could go on an on. Take a metalurgy class and learn how expensive cables are made (cooled over day to form a single crystal), buy some extremely expensive equipment and enjoy listening to a pair of speakers that people think you are running surround and a powered sub (I got that all the time).

I told you not to get me started //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

As for Mac amps, both home and mobile, they are hand made and each and every single amp is tested. Are they over priced, yes maybe a bit. But you are buying the name and with that name comes quality. If you ever toured the Mac factory, you would crap yourself (yes I took the tour).

With that said, The Mac amp SQ qill not be noticed running factory speakers with factory wire and Walmart noise inducing RCS's.

Oh, and Mac car speakers are made by Boston Acoustics Still a great speaker though.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

How's the Kool-aide taste? If you can't measure a difference that will have an audible effect, there is no difference. The only difference is in your perception because you believe one product is superior and your brain, based on preconceived notions, "hears" a difference that cannot be measurably demonstrated. If you choose to use your ears (arguably one of the least reliable measurment instruments) to compare, that's your choice, but you can't hear a difference that doesn't exist.

Your single crystal theory is total BS, BTW. Whoever told you that was trying to justify their exorbitant prices and mark their same-old as special. It just doesn't work that way with a ductile material like copper or silver.

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

How's the Kool-aide taste? If you can't measure a difference that will have an audible effect, there is no difference. The only difference is in your perception because you believe one product is superior and your brain, based on preconceived notions, "hears" a difference that cannot be measurably demonstrated. If you choose to use your ears (arguably one of the least reliable measurment instruments) to compare, that's your choice, but you can't hear a difference that doesn't exist.
Your single crystal theory is total BS, BTW. Whoever told you that was trying to justify their exorbitant prices and mark their same-old as special. It just doesn't work that way with a ductile material like copper or silver.

HT...with all due respect -- I think this one is a lost cause.

Garrett could be the poster boy for voodoo audio marketing and its lack of any basis in science OR reason.

BTW - "singel crystal" voodoo?? Welcome to 1995.

 

[Saint211 10+ year member]

Maybe Ill run down there and take the tour sometime and report my findings... I live in Syracuse.

On a side note, about profile... they are cheap in cost, but the ones I've had lasted me years with not one single issue til I got rid of them. Im an SPL type guy more than an SQ guy and I still consider getting one of their 4 ch to run my highs, but due to my occupation, Im getting a great deal on Infinity right now and no need to ship things.

 

[garrettpf 10+ year member]

I have taken Metalurgy. When a liquid cools to a solid form, it forms crystals. The faster it cools the smaller the crystal. The slower it cools the larger the crystal(s) it forms. As for how this pertains to audio, the more the crystals the more noise can be introduced. (do you also want me to explain how electricity flows from Neg to Pos? or how a lightening strike starts from the earth [neg]?). Yes I took electronics too. expand your mind young man.

Any child can find this out for themselves with water and a refridgerator. Try it n2audio. try some science and you may just find reason. Ask your mommy first before using the freezer, and don't stick your tongue to the ice //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif (please don't make me expain that one too)

Other then that, yes this is a lost cause... trying to explain how sh!t works to someone trying to justify their use of crap //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[tsenfw 10+ year member]

I stayed at a holiday inn express, I can tell you the sq difference between a mac and a profile.

I don't think anyone will listen to your rants unless you were like an electrical engineer or something.

Metallurgy and electronics at the community college don't count lol.

Oh, and it's METALLURGY

 

[mlstrass 5,000+ posts]

there's a village missing it's idiot and we just found him....

I'm guessing you sold hi-end audio because you bought into the hype and could easily "sell" it to others. I could NO way in good conscience convince someone they "needed" $2500 speaker cables...

 

[W8 a minute 10+ year member]

Just got done installing a Profile amp/Polk comps in a neighbor's car last night. Luckily he's never heard of Macintosh, so it sounds great to him //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

THAT is the key. You can A/B amps all day at the store and maybe hear a slight difference. But if amp A sounds good to you buy it. Because a week later you'll forget how amp B sounded and still have 2000 dollars in your pocket.

Back in the day I worked for a retailer that sold PPI, Phoenix Gold (MS series), McIntosh, and Profile (white California series). IMHO the Mcintosh's were always over hyped and counted on their home reputation for a majority of sales.

One of our installers had a bucket he drove in the winter and loaded it with a Alpine deck, ADS speakers/subs, and Profile amps. This car also had PG stickers all over the windows so people would always assume he ran PG amps and they always were impressed with how it sounded. Too bad they didn't know what was really hidden in the spare tire well. 2 California series amps.

I've pulled the same trick with some Rockford speakers/subs/stickers a Pyramid 900G amplifier. Audiophiles really aren't as smart as they think they are.

All that being said I really covet my PPI PC series amps. Why? I don't know, but I like them. I like the build quality, I like knowing all the components are high quality. But in the back of my mind I know I can get the same performance for less. Sure, I might end up with an amp rated for 1000 watts X4 but as long as I know it only makes 100W x4 and use it accordingly who cares?

 

[mlstrass 5,000+ posts]

I stayed at a holiday inn express, I can tell you the sq difference between a mac and a profile.
I don't think anyone will listen to your rants unless you were like an electrical engineer or something.

Metallurgy and electronics at the community college don't count lol.

Oh, and it's METALLURGY

Does any of that really matter when the real measuring tool is your ears //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[mlstrass 5,000+ posts]

At least there's no one in this thread trying to convince us that their over priced shit sounds way better then budget equipment when our ears tell us differnent //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[ultimate157 5,000+ posts]

I have taken Metalurgy. When a liquid cools to a solid form, it forms crystals. The faster it cools the smaller the crystal. The slower it cools the larger the crystal(s) it forms. As for how this pertains to audio, the more the crystals the more noise can be introduced. (do you also want me to explain how electricity flows from Neg to Pos? or how a lightening strike starts from the earth [neg]?). Yes I took electronics too. expand your mind young man.
Any child can find this out for themselves with water and a refridgerator. Try it n2audio. try some science and you may just find reason. Ask your mommy first before using the freezer, and don't stick your tongue to the ice //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif (please don't make me expain that one too)

Other then that, yes this is a lost cause... trying to explain how sh!t works to someone trying to justify their use of crap //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Wow. Just wow. I've never seen someone try and back up their expansive knowledge on a topic with Electronics 101 material. You sir, are the first.

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

Someone needs to link this guy to the test that one website did of the monster cables versus coat hangers, where even the "audiophiles" couldn't tell the difference.

 

[ultimate157 5,000+ posts]

Someone needs to link this guy to the test that one website did of the monster cables versus coat hangers, where even the "audiophiles" couldn't tell the difference.

Obviously the hangers were slow cooled. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif