What frequency response, in car, for subs, sounds the best?

[duanebro 10+ year member]

What do you want, flat as possible? Just loud, cause it sounds cool?

I have found that a flat fr doesn't sound very good in a car. It sounds like the sub is off. I think most road noise is in this area and the fr needs rise above. So a rising fr as you go lower, "sounds" better. I have read that 3 db per octave (did I spell that wrong?) slope over the entire fr of the system sounds better than a flat fr. (more bass, less treble)

Does anyone here measure their fr? I'd like to see if there is a trend that sounds better overall.

And yes I know this is highly subjective. I'm just trying to get a idea of what most people here like, or think they like. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

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[BnGRacing 10+ year member]

The thing with frequency response is that our ears are more sensitive in the midrange while a nice mic is not. Set up a system to sound good to your own ears and don't worry much about what an RTA says.

And like you've pointed out, road noise is a problem that kinda ruins the 20-20k flat response. A loud exhaust eats up bass and wind noise eats up the highs. Factor that with our ears being most sensitive around the midrange and you start to see why things like bass boost, BBE, etc. are a fan favorite.

 

[THATpurpleKUSH 5,000+ posts]

I like lots of bass from 40-45 and down. Currently I can play good from 80hz down to about 30, then it rolls off fairly quickly, anything below 25-26 is in audible and just feels like road noise or vibrations from having a firm riding vehicle.

My ports are tuned to 32.7hz if you want to be exact, the goal was 33.

 

[wenn_du_weinst 10+ year member]

I like flat my sub is usually on 1/15

 

[Why So Cereal? 5,000+ posts]

I actually RTA'd mine and found that below 63hz was way quieter than my mid and high freqs (windows up) and it sounds good to me.

Windows Down, it flattens out and sometimes it seems like the bass is too much on certain songs. Could be a suckish RTA or maybe my ears are retarded.

 

[Moble Enclosurs 10+ year member]

You cannot change a good response curve to compensate broadband noises and expect many good results from it anyhow. The idea is to reduce road noise and other noises before a system comes into play rather than trying to work a response around the noise. The broadband noise will in fact aid in the response smoothness if the output is greater than the frequencies played. The best way to figure for a proper response is also not just for accounting for external sources, but for proper operation of the equipment you choose. For instance, if you want to increase bass at 3dB/Octave from 20kHz down, you may need a subsystem that HAS to accommodate for loss in output due to road noise for a flatter response. So, when measured WITHOUT road noise as a factor, you will find that it will in fact exceed the output of the higher frequencies (which is what the idea was in the first place). But if you subtract the noise from the response, you can effectively use less power, less drivers, etc to obtain your goals of a natural sound.

Our ears have a response curve on their own. They become more sensitive as the frequencies drop somewhere below 2kHz, where the vocals are located as mentioned above. But continue to increase in sensitivity all the way down to subsonic levels. Our ears have a response curve, and by reversing the curve to an inverted state, you can effectively achieve natural sound...which I will agree to, that it is not "flat". the flat response that comes from a system may sound off due to that reason alone. Not only do you have to account for resonances and dips in the response as well as acoustical factors of propagation, such as time delay and loss of output from absorption, but you have to understand the way the sound is perceived, and by doing so, you need to know the general curve of the ears. There is where a flat response will be useful, only when those factors are already figured in...and not during a design process of anechoic calculations that you will find by using a program design for box designing.

So, in conclusion, yes, a flat response is not ideal, but only when it does not account for the factors that most of us leave out anyway. It is, in fact ideal, when losses and gains are accounted for.

 

[wenn_du_weinst 10+ year member]

I actually RTA'd mine and found that below 63hz was way quieter than my mid and high freqs (windows up) and it sounds good to me.Windows Down, it flattens out and sometimes it seems like the bass is too much on certain songs. Could be a suckish RTA or maybe my ears are retarded.

your forgetting 90% of these forums are used to their bass **** near drowning out the rest of the music.

 

[Why So Cereal? 5,000+ posts]

your forgetting 90% of these forums are used to their bass **** near drowning out the rest of the music.

That's even off of the forums, I had a local installer tell me a flat response was going to sound like crap and that I should have my lows about 10db higher than my mids and my highs. Then he let me hear his truck which was set up that way and it was just like u said, drowning out the rest of the music.

Maybe, he was compensating for road noise....not sure....

 

[duanebro 10+ year member]

You cannot change a good response curve to compensate broadband noises and expect many good results from it anyhow. The idea is to reduce road noise and other noises before a system comes into play rather than trying to work a response around the noise.

I agree with reducing road noise.

The broadband noise will in fact aid in the response smoothness if the output is greater than the frequencies played.

Sorry I don't understand this. If the noise is louder than the radio, then you can't hear the radio.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

The best way to figure for a proper response is also not just for accounting for external sources, but for proper operation of the equipment you choose. For instance, if you want to increase bass at 3dB/Octave from 20kHz down, you may need a subsystem that HAS to accommodate for loss in output due to road noise for a flatter response. So, when measured WITHOUT road noise as a factor, you will find that it will in fact exceed the output of the higher frequencies (which is what the idea was in the first place). But if you subtract the noise from the response, you can effectively use less power, less drivers, etc to obtain your goals of a natural sound.

True, which is why many sq guys have very nice home stereos, It is way easier to have a low noise floor.

Our ears have a response curve on their own. They become more sensitive as the frequencies drop somewhere below 2kHz, where the vocals are located as mentioned above. But continue to increase in sensitivity all the way down to subsonic levels.

Can you find a reference to this? I found this: Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia If I am reading this correctly we are least sensitive at lower and higher frequency,and most sensitive around 2-5K.

Our ears have a response curve, and by reversing the curve to an inverted state, you can effectively achieve natural sound...which I will agree to, that it is not "flat". the flat response that comes from a system may sound off due to that reason alone. Not only do you have to account for resonances and dips in the response as well as acoustical factors of propagation, such as time delay and loss of output from absorption, but you have to understand the way the sound is perceived, and by doing so, you need to know the general curve of the ears. There is where a flat response will be useful, only when those factors are already figured in...and not during a design process of anechoic calculations that you will find by using a program design for box designing.

Um, you kind of lost me here. As far as Equal-loudness contours, Doesn't this not matter? (did I just hear someone hit the groan button ) The basic/simplified reason: If the mics recording the music have a flat FR and the speakers playing it back have a flat FR - Then sound comes out of the speakers the same as it went in!

So, in conclusion, yes, a flat response is not ideal, but only when it does not account for the factors that most of us leave out anyway. It is, in fact ideal, when losses and gains are accounted for.

So if you know your car's transfer function, then you can design around that for the best SQ?

Please know that I am not trying to argue, I am trying to learn. I will try to rephrase my original question. What sound do most car audio guys, (Not the sq guys, as I think we are the minority here.) like to hear? What makes them or the kid on the street say "That is the best system I have ever heard! I want my car to sound like that!"

Thanks for the replys,

Duane

 

[duanebro 10+ year member]

That's even off of the forums, I had a local installer tell me a flat response was going to sound like crap and that I should have my lows about 10db higher than my mids and my highs. Then he let me hear his truck which was set up that way and it was just like u said, drowning out the rest of the music.
Maybe, he was compensating for road noise....not sure....

I think that the local installer, and most others are used to the base being cranked up. If you had these guys listen to a very high end home system, or studio monitor, they would say it needs a sub! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[duanebro 10+ year member]

I actually RTA'd mine and found that below 63hz was way quieter than my mid and high freqs (windows up) and it sounds good to me.Windows Down, it flattens out and sometimes it seems like the bass is too much on certain songs. Could be a suckish RTA or maybe my ears are retarded.

What RTA did you use?

Maybe the recording guy is one of those 90% who like base louder than every thing else! LOL

 

[dumple 5,000+ posts]

46.4545 hz, i think its pretty specific to the vehicle in question and unless someone has the same vehicle that has used a rta on it..... with that said have have my sub boosted maybe 3db because i have a gay loud exhaust and it drones at roughly 43hz so in some songs it sounds like nothing but my exhaust is there..

for some reason i think im misunderstanding what your asking, but to clarify what i mean in what i said, my headunits eq is flat untill around 500hz then its plus one plus 3 plus 3 plus 2, but because i have ultra cool kicker sx amps i have my subwoofer playing 22-200hz flat down low and 6db cut up high, my eq value is set at 43.5 or somethign boosted 3

 

[Moble Enclosurs 10+ year member]

I agree with reducing road noise.



Sorry I don't understand this. If the noise is louder than the radio, then you can't hear the radio.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

True, which is why many sq guys have very nice home stereos, It is way easier to have a low noise floor.

Can you find a reference to this? I found this: Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia If I am reading this correctly we are least sensitive at lower and higher frequency,and most sensitive around 2-5K.

Um, you kind of lost me here. As far as Equal-loudness contours, Doesn't this not matter? (did I just hear someone hit the groan button ) The basic/simplified reason: If the mics recording the music have a flat FR and the speakers playing it back have a flat FR - Then sound comes out of the speakers the same as it went in!

So if you know your car's transfer function, then you can design around that for the best SQ?

Please know that I am not trying to argue, I am trying to learn. I will try to rephrase my original question. What sound do most car audio guys, (Not the sq guys, as I think we are the minority here.) like to hear? What makes them or the kid on the street say "That is the best system I have ever heard! I want my car to sound like that!"

Thanks for the replys,

Duane

sure thing. I'll be back on soon and help you out with everything. I'm at work so once I sit down, I'll jump back on here for you.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[Moble Enclosurs 10+ year member]

Ok, got about 30 min. I'll look all that over and see what I can do.

 

[Why So Cereal? 5,000+ posts]

What RTA did you use?
Maybe the recording guy is one of those 90% who like base louder than every thing else! LOL

initially i used the Studio Six RTA on the Ipad (heard it was pretty good over on DIYMA)

more recently I used a friends RTA, cant remember the name of it, dont know too much about them either lol

either way, I got roughly the same results both ways.