what do you guys think about war?

[CarAudioAddict 10+ year member]

On The welfare topic:

Welfare is there to help people/families that can't make it on their own. Yes people milk the system (people here in my hometown get PO boxes in both Alberta and BC to collect two welfare checks at a time). I firmly believe that people on govt support should have to prove that they are looking for a (better) job. You don't try to get your hand out of the govt pocket, the govt closes it's pocket.

On the war topic:

War is not the answer to ANY problem. PERIOD.

On the foreign policy Topic:

The US has earned it's reputation in most countries for being selfish, arrogant, etc. I can usually tell when an american comes into the shop simply from the fact that he/she expects instant respect and has an attitude of "I'm better than you, so you should bow down to me."

Well I'm not saying that all americans are like that (actually met many that are friendly down to earth), the vast majority are. Let me tell you something - NO ONE ON THE PLANET IS BETTER THAN ME, BUT I'M ALSO NOT BETTER THAN ANYONE ON THE PLANET.

 

[LuRp 10+ year member]

So, your from Canada?

 

[CarAudioAddict 10+ year member]

Yeah.

Great Country, Friendly People, and a Govt that you can set your watch by their screw-ups.

 

[Corsica 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Savant  

I'm not sure what you are talking about with 'foodstamp card' and getting cash, might be new or just where you live.. I've never seen those.. And, how the hell can you complain that people are buying BABY FOOD? or tea? or cereal?.. that makes no sense to me.. Just because you can't get a job to cover all your bills doesn't mean you shouldn't feed your baby or drink tea or have soda.. WTF? drink water for months on end? are you NUTS? I can see buying beer as being bothersome.. but for (most) of the rest that you are complaining about, I don't get it..

No the tea coffe ceral, those are fine but they just buy junk food, and these cards are foodstamp cards.........look llike ATM/drivers liscences. Its just BSA but I'll explain more later.

J

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

I used to work at a supermarket...and there was only one occassion where I was extremely pissed and truly offended...when a lady put her keys, to her Lexus that is, and her cell phone down to pull out her EBT(foodstamp) card. I wanted to give her a nice backhand. I don't believe in food stamps whatsoever, unless there is a just reason(you physically CAN'T work). People that get them because they "can't get a job" is pure bullshit, as Mc****inDonalds is always hiring.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LuRp Funny I thought we paid for all that stuff that was givin to us. And all this time it was just givin to us in good faith, how stupid of me.

Again... just because 'we' pay the PRECIOUS few 'owners' in a lot of these countries doesn't mean we aren't taking away from others.. Do that math, would you?? 10% of the world pop uses over 50% of ALL RESOURCES.. that leave 50% of what is comming out of everywhere for 90% of the population? How the hell can you say 'we paied for it'? We drive a lot of the world economy, and in a lot of countries people bust their ***** for just enough food to not starve and enough clothes to not be nekked.. while in America we throw away enough food in a day to feed some small countries for a month and if we get a little stain on something? it goes in the trash.. into the ground to rot.. For everything "you pay for", someone else can't have it.. and normally, it's not another American that can't have it, it's dozens of families in some other country that are loosing out..

I work at the New York Merchantile Exchange, which is about 150 - 200 feet (yeah feet) away from ground zero. Some of the things we do there is trade commodities futures contracts.

 

com·mod·i·ty - Pronunciation: k&-'mä-d&-tE

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural -ties

Etymology: Middle English commoditee, from Middle French commodité, from Latin commoditat-, commoditas, from commodus

Date: 15th century

1 : an economic good: as a : a product of agriculture or mining b : an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment c : a mass-produced unspecialized product

 

A few of the biggest markets are natural gas, crude oil, unleaded gas etc.. Now im gonna go off on a limb and say thats somewhat relevant to my "ignorant" opinion. Hmm, maybe not, what do we at NYMEX know anyway, its not like we set the price for that stuff or anything.

Which has exactly WHAT to do with your not being able to understand that you are setting prices for things that are owned by PRECIOUS FEW people in the world (compared to the total pop) and has NOTHING to do with Americans ******* the life out of the planet?

I've seen a lot of stupid people doing jobs that I thought were reserved for smart people (hell, I'm a software engineer and I work with people that can barely get their computers to work sometimes.. and people so pathetic that they can't make coffee when they take the last little bit? can't be bothered to contribute or are too good to make the coffee they are drinking?).. Just because you work at a Merchentile Exchange doesn't mean you are "smart" or "open minded" or have good reading comprehension or are a decent human being.. Hell, the president of the United States is a greedy, dishonest, idiot.. At least, that's my opinion of him..

With oil revenues making up around 90-95% of total Saudi export earnings, 70%-80% of state revenues, and around 40% of the country's gross domestic product (GDP), Saudi Arabia's economy remains, despite attempts at diversification, heavily dependent on oil (although investments in petrochemicals have increased the relative importance of the downstream petroleum sector in recent years). The sharp rebound in world oil prices between early 1999 and September 2001, for instance, improved the country's economic outlook greatly, and to some extent removed pressures for major changes, while the sharp decline in oil prices following the September 11 terrorist attacks on the United States threw Saudi Arabia's economic outlook back into question. Oil prices have been strong once again in 2002, and for the year, Saudi Arabia is expected to earn nearly $55 billion in crude oil export revenues, roughly unchanged from 2001. Given flat oil export revenues, Saudi Arabia's economy is likely to see slow growth in 2002. For 2001, Saudi real GDP growth was about 1.2%, significantly lower than forecasts made prior to September 11, 2001. The Saudi economy also has slowed sharply from 2000 when, in large part fueled by high oil export revenues, the country's real GDP grew by about 4.5%. For 2002, Saudi real GDP growth of 1.5% is expected, with inflation of about 0.6%

Source http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/saudi.html

I don't think a comment here is required.

Actually, I'd like a comment since you mentioned NOTHING about the average Saudi, just that the country exists because they have oil, and when their only trade was (or is) threatened, they don't have any other way to survive.. Your little snipit here says nothing about the 'average' or 'median' or 'mean' income in Saudi.. just that the 'country' will pull in $55 billion? What is the pop of Saudi Arabia? I bet 55 Bill breaks out to nothing like the trillions we 'make' here..

A comment would be well warrented if you plan to try and show that "Saudi Arabia" is rich, not just the few land owners..

The "uninformed" have an obligation to inform themselves. It is not my responsibility to hold anyones hands. All i can do is express my opinion based on information i review. If anyone is baseing their opinion solely from a message forum at Caraudio.com, I highly recommend taking a trip over to your local library.

And while I agree with you to a certian degree (you can't be expected to go out and teach everyone about what's going on), it's the attitude of "I could care less about anyone else" that is part of this country's problem.. We aren't asking you to go out and canvas neighborhoods, we are asking you to have something more substantial to say than "i deserve to waste as much as I want".. actaully, I'm asking you to not be such a selfish bastard, but again, that will never happen since MOST people in America **** that way... And, thus.. is why most other people in the world hate us.. but, you and I seem to KEEP going around and around on that idea.. Not sure why though, it's a SIMPLE concept..

Hey man, we are in total agreement here. We should have had solar powered everything 10 years ago.. theres no doubt in my mind that greedy oil companies held back the research to make a buck. But what is done is done. We are changeing that now by moving in that direction.

 

pro·pane - Pronunciation: 'prO-"pAn

Function: noun

Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary prop- + -ane

Date: 1866

: a heavy flammable gaseous alkane C3H8 found in crude petroleum and natural gas and used especially as fuel and in chemical synthesis

 

Propane is just another form of refined oil (petroleum). A true solution is the hydrogen powered engines that are out now. They (they, being the researchers) are working on implementing them in motor vehicles. The byproduct of a hydrogen engine is H2O, for those of you un-aquainted with chemistry, it's water. Therefore reduceing the CO2 and NOX emissions.

Source http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs/04-2002/page3.htm

 

Look at YOUR definition.. NATURAL GAS.. Hmm.. METHANE from composting and DUMPS where we drop all those things we don't want.. and from sewer processing stations.. and oil wells.. Do you have ANY idea how much of that we are burning off instead of trying to harvest it? Know why? we don't use it much around here.. and I'm sure most of what we do use is refined from oil.. now that makes sense.. waste billions of tons of natural gas a year, then refine oil to make propane for heating and barbeque grills..

And, not 'what ever I say' cheif.. I have said time and time again that other people in the world hate us because we are so wastefull and arrogant and treat anyone that isn't american like shit (ethnocentric... I've said that a few times too)..

Since you can't see that, there is no point in discussing this with you.. you can't seem to see it infront of you, or don't accept it as fact (like most of the rest of the world does)..

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by snova031 I used to work at a supermarket...and there was only one occassion where I was extremely pissed and truly offended...when a lady put her keys, to her Lexus that is, and her cell phone down to pull out her EBT(foodstamp) card. I wanted to give her a nice backhand. I don't believe in food stamps whatsoever, unless there is a just reason(you physically CAN'T work). People that get them because they "can't get a job" is pure bullshit, as Mc****inDonalds is always hiring.

Two things.. You can get food stamps if you are in 'hardship'... maybe she owned that Lexus outright and her husband had recently died and she had been out of the work force for 40 years and had already sold all the rest of her worldly possesions to keep the car and phone (maybe the phone was her only phone?).. If she's been out of money for months and hasn't found a job yet, she could get food stamps to help her get by for a few months.. That's a bad thing? If you ever end up down on your luck, you wouldn't want someone to lend you a hand?

The second thing.. Mc****inDonalds doesn't pay enough to support a family.. You get no benifits there, and can't even work 40 hours a week in most cases so the owner can get around some of the employment laws (like unemployment insurance and the like).. You would have to have BOTH parents working 2 fast food jobs each at just under the 40 hour limit at each just to feed, house, and clothe their kids... Hmm.. but that doesn't account for child care.. Damm, guess you can't have both parents gone that much to make money.. And what about the single parent? that would mean 4 fast food jobs (maybe 3 if there is only one child).. no time to sleep and no one to watch/raise the child..

You might not have noticed my post where I mentioned that unemployment is REQUIRED for our economic model to work? 3% is about the minimum rate for stability (if I recall correctly).. What do we do with those people? leave them on the streets? They, with out a doubt, will start taking what they want by force (and don't bother saying "then put them in jail" since it costs MORE to jail someone than to give them welfare)..

 

[Corsica 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Savant  

The second thing.. Mc****inDonalds doesn't pay enough to support a family.. You get no benifits there, and can't even work 40 hours a week in most cases so the owner can get around some of the employment laws (like unemployment insurance and the like).. You would have to have BOTH parents working 2 fast food jobs each at just under the 40 hour limit at each just to feed, house, and clothe their kids... Hmm.. but that doesn't account for child care.. Damm, guess you can't have both parents gone that much to make money.. And what about the single parent? that would mean 4 fast food jobs (maybe 3 if there is only one child).. no time to sleep and no one to watch/raise the child..

 

Care to take a wager on the "mcdonalds won't support a family?? Girl in my class (and best friends GF), her mom worked at McDonalds for the past like 6 or7 yrs. supported herself and her 2 children. Not much help from her ex hubby...............And dude there are ALWAYS jobs available. Never can u open the paper without seeing "workers wanted" some people just think "that work is below me" and go on welfare, and its bullshit.

J

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Corsica Care to take a wager on the "mcdonalds won't support a family?? Girl in my class (and best friends GF), her mom worked at McDonalds for the past like 6 or7 yrs. supported herself and her 2 children. Not much help from her ex hubby...............And dude there are ALWAYS jobs available. Never can u open the paper without seeing "workers wanted" some people just think "that work is below me" and go on welfare, and its bullshit.

 

 

J

'not much help' would be relative.. and even if he only gave them $100 a month, that's almost a week's worth of fast food pay..

Yes, there may 'always be jobs available', but that doesn't mean there are enough jobs for everyone that needs (or wants) one.. Persoanlly, I've never really had much of a problem getting a job, but then, I'm not the average Joe either.. I actually show up to work on time and bust my *** doing what ever I'm doing and am good at it.. Some of the people working at McDonalds should be there either, they are too stupid to figure out how to put meat on a burger?? I've gotten hamburgers with no patty, or chicken sandwiches with 1/4 lb meat?? or the bun 1/2 off the burger? or ask for extra mayo and get just pickles?? That's why you always see jobs available.. Idiots get some jobs then loose them or get fired, then that spot needs to be filled.. but mostly crappy employee types are out there lookin'... *shrug*

Why does everyone think being on welfare is such a party? You get just enough to get by.. If I recall, you don't even get enough to be 'up' to the poverty line.. And.. lets see... stick my hand in a toilet all day for barely enough money to pay rent and get food... and have no money for anything else.. or go on welfare where I get "less" money but my rent is adjusted so I have about the same result as putting my hands in other people's shit all day.. Which would you do? Personally, I don't see how anyone could be "proud" of taking care of themselves at a totally crappy level of living by wiping up shit all day because at least they aren't getting a handout?

anyway (AGAIN) this is soooooo off topic.. it really needs to be left alone (at least in this thread.. if you want to complain about welfare, start a thread in the "sound off" forum)..

 

[LuRp 10+ year member]

Savant,

I am a firm believer that ppl should read a post before replying. I didnt post the entire DOE page because it would take up too much room.

Here's a tip for you buddy. The next time you try and have an intelligent debate, post a source or two to back up your statements.

You know what? Im feeling generous today. Here's a link for your source, go search this link and post your information. It's the only way you will ever have a respected opinion. It also helps to know what your talking about, but i guess thats just a detail huh?

Here ya go pal - http://www.fedstats.gov/

I don't know why im even bothering to reply to your inane post. But,

Savant wrote: Which has exactly WHAT to do with your not being able to understand that you are setting prices for things that are owned by PRECIOUS FEW people in the world (compared to the total pop) and has NOTHING to do with Americans ******* the life out of the planet?

What in gods name are you talking about? The prices we set have to do with every consumer on this planet. It's a good thing you know what your talking about.

Yup, im done with you. Everything else you wrote is just too dumb to respond to.

LuRp

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LuRp Savant,

 

I am a firm believer that ppl should read a post before replying. I didnt post the entire DOE page because it would take up too much room.

Well, initially I DID read 'your' whole post.. now I've scanned the entire article for you.. NO mention of who gets the money for the oil, or what the average person even makes a year.. So, what's the point of you telling me I should read an article you posted that has NO relavant data for my statement??

Here's a tip for you buddy. The next time you try and have an intelligent debate, post a source or two to back up your statements.

You know what? Im feeling generous today. Here's a link for your source, go search this link and post your information. It's the only way you will ever have a respected opinion. It also helps to know what your talking about, but i guess thats just a detail huh?

Here ya go pal - http://www.fedstats.gov/

Well.. just searched around on that site.. You're right.. I was wrong about one of the numbers (couldn't find info on the US' global resource consumption though).. Turns out there are only ~282 million people in the US, and 6.2 billion globaly.. so we aren't 10% ******* up so much, we are 4%.. even worse, but thanks for the link

What in gods name are you talking about? The prices we set have to do with every consumer on this planet. It's a good thing you know what your talking about.

What I was talking about is that the money 'we' use to buy things that "you" set the price for goes to the OWNERS of the oil, not the people living in that country..

Since you want some 'facts' posted .. here..

Per capita oil export revenues (in inflation adjusted dollars) remain far below high levels reached during the 1970s and early 1980s (around $2,563 per person in 2001, versus $23,820 in 1980, for instance)

which means.. even if all the money DID go to the 'public', they would only get $2600 a year? hmm... yup.. you are certialy right, Saudi Arabia is 'rich'..

and this..

Currently, large state corporations, like oil firm Saudi Aramco (which has a monopoly on Saudi upstream oil development and controls 98% of the country's oil reserves) and the Saudi Basic Industries Corporation (SABIC; the world's 11th largest petrochemical producer) dominate the Saudi economy.

So, the people living in the streets there benifit how? and with a 15% unemployment rate, there are a lot of people with crappy lives about now.. And 50% of the pop is under the age of 15.. how many of them are not gonna be able to get jobs (presuming most of them aren't already working at 15) when the unemployment is already 15%?

And, NOWHERE in that article did it mention anything about the income of the population or anything.. just tons of crap about oil costs.. Though, I did find it interesting that it only costs them $1-$2 a barrel to process the oil, and they have trillions and trillions of barrels reserves (36 trillion-ish?) AND.. they have almost 300 trillion cubic feet of natural gas reserves (not from oil, from the fields/wells)

 

Yup, im done with you. Everything else you wrote is just too dumb to respond to.

 

LuRp

Well, obviously I'd beg to differ on the dumb issue.. but there is no point since I'm dumb, right? I mean, just because you havn't managed to 'prove' anything I've said as wrong, and I've been able to 'prove' (with your resources, I might add) that I at least know 'something' about some of this..

but, you are right.. You da man.. you're smart and I'm dumb and the fuk the world attitude is good

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

I'm done with you too.. You havn't produced one statement that could possibly justify your being such a selfish, introverted, ethnocentric ***. Nor have you disproved anything I, or anyone else, have said.. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Oh, and here is another ****ing example of how the government screws my parents in the ***. At my school we have a program for kids that "are economically/socially disadvantaged"....and no matter how bad you do, they can't take you out of the program. Now my ****ing parents have to pay for these little ****s, of who about 75% of them aren't even holding a 2.0, to go to college and do jack shit. And my parent's don't get any financial help at all, because "they make too much". It's quite bullshit. And if I owned a Lexus, and say my wife supported the family, and she died, I'd ****ing sell it and buy a affordable car. That would be the ideal thing to do. Not rip off hard working americans.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by snova031 Oh, and here is another ****ing example of how the government screws my parents in the ***. At my school we have a program for kids that "are economically/socially disadvantaged"....and no matter how bad you do, they can't take you out of the program. Now my ****ing parents have to pay for these little ****s, of who about 75% of them aren't even holding a 2.0, to go to college and do jack shit. And my parent's don't get any financial help at all, because "they make too much". It's quite bullshit. And if I owned a Lexus, and say my wife supported the family, and she died, I'd ****ing sell it and buy a affordable car. That would be the ideal thing to do. Not rip off hard working americans.

So, you know some people getting a free ride (you are talking about college I take it)? Have you actaully looked into the program? I mean, I got student loans since I was a verteran and therefore independant.. If I wasn't, my parents (mom actually, father left when I was 2) still were poor enough that I'd have gotten the loans.. Maybe part of this 'program' is loans? And, how many "little ****s" are we talking about? I mean, if there are 5 and 75% are doing bad, who the fuk cares? And, 2.0 is AVERAGE.. that's a C.. if they are 'close' to that, they are doing about what MOST people do then.. right?

So, you have mommy and daddy paying for college? You get a free ride then, so why ***** about those other kids? If you are paying for it on your own you 'might' have some room to complain, but not much.. If your school has that program, it's a state program, and your state taxes go toward that.. if you don't like supporting things like that, move to a different state.. that simple.. I have to pay Fedral taxes too, and mulit-millionare assholes get money from that.. I don't like it either, but there isn't anything I can do about it.. so *****ing about it isn't gonna help..

As for you selling your Lexus for 'a more affodable' car.. um, once you OWN it, how can some other car be 'more affordable'? Why would it matter? and if you (she) gave up a lot of stuff already, don't you think it would be nice to have 'something' after all that? After all that loss (in this hypothetical anyway) you would not have dampend spirits when you gave up your last posession? bullshit.. and we aren't talking about being on foodstamps for ever or getting thousands of dollars a month worth or something.. it's just enough to let you not starve to death.. Ripping off hard working americans? gimme a break.. Paying taxes is something we all have to do and that money goes to a lot of things that a lot of people would rather not 'fund'.. but that's what taxes are for..deal with it..

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Savant So, you know some people getting a free ride (you are talking about college I take it)? Have you actaully looked into the program? I mean, I got student loans since I was a verteran and therefore independant.. If I wasn't, my parents (mom actually, father left when I was 2) still were poor enough that I'd have gotten the loans.. Maybe part of this 'program' is loans? And, how many "little ****s" are we talking about? I mean, if there are 5 and 75% are doing bad, who the fuk cares? And, 2.0 is AVERAGE.. that's a C.. if they are 'close' to that, they are doing about what MOST people do then.. right?

 

So, you have mommy and daddy paying for college? You get a free ride then, so why ***** about those other kids? If you are paying for it on your own you 'might' have some room to complain, but not much.. If your school has that program, it's a state program, and your state taxes go toward that.. if you don't like supporting things like that, move to a different state.. that simple.. I have to pay Fedral taxes too, and mulit-millionare assholes get money from that.. I don't like it either, but there isn't anything I can do about it.. so *****ing about it isn't gonna help..

 

As for you selling your Lexus for 'a more affodable' car.. um, once you OWN it, how can some other car be 'more affordable'? Why would it matter? and if you (she) gave up a lot of stuff already, don't you think it would be nice to have 'something' after all that? After all that loss (in this hypothetical anyway) you would not have dampend spirits when you gave up your last posession? bullshit.. and we aren't talking about being on foodstamps for ever or getting thousands of dollars a month worth or something.. it's just enough to let you not starve to death.. Ripping off hard working americans? gimme a break.. Paying taxes is something we all have to do and that money goes to a lot of things that a lot of people would rather not 'fund'.. but that's what taxes are for..deal with it..

The program is aimed at minorities...my school is probably one of the most diverse campuses in the US...and my parents decided that since I paid for every penny of my car and insurance and such, they would pay for college. And it's quite difficult for an 18 year old to pick up and move out of state, and stay in school fulltime and support himself...unless I went on WELFARE...but of course I can't do that now can I. It pisses me off how a lot of people that get this money from the government have hardly any education and sit at home all day...and believe me, I know people on welfare, and they are cheating the **** out of the government. Long Island already has the highest tazes in the US, it just pisses me off that I have to see my parents working non stop just to pay ****ing taxes like crazy, and don't tell me we should just "pick up and move", its not that easy.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by snova031 The program is aimed at minorities...my school is probably one of the most diverse campuses in the US...and my parents decided that since I paid for every penny of my car and insurance and such, they would pay for college. And it's quite difficult for an 18 year old to pick up and move out of state, and stay in school fulltime and support himself...unless I went on WELFARE...but of course I can't do that now can I. It pisses me off how a lot of people that get this money from the government have hardly any education and sit at home all day...and believe me, I know people on welfare, and they are cheating the **** out of the government. Long Island already has the highest tazes in the US, it just pisses me off that I have to see my parents working non stop just to pay ****ing taxes like crazy, and don't tell me we should just "pick up and move", its not that easy.

See? now here's a statement I can appriciate!

I agree that a lot of people on welfare 'cheat' the system, that doesn't mean 'welfare' is bad, it means we need to tighten up the system.. When my ex-girlfriend was on welfare when we had our daughter, I was a full time student. If I wouldn't have been, I'd have to show 'proof' of looking for work (just like with unemployment).. In WI you can only be on welfare for 3 years I think (actaully, it's until your youngest child is 3? or maybe just because it was the child that had her start welfare?).. I ended up leaving her mom (my daughter is 10 now, and I talk to her every week and she visits during the summers and I pay child support.. the situation sucks, but that's how it is) and when the 3 years was up she went to school (and was able to get 'some' benifits like food stamps and health care for the child, but not much more) and became gainfully employed.. Been working at the same dental office for 6 years now.. That's how welfare is "supposed" to be used.. Now the person that was on welfare is paying back what was 'loaned'.. and supporting others who are on welfare now.. *shrug*

As for most people on welfare being dumb.. I would tend to agree too.. But it's the fact that they are dumb that makes it so hard for them to keep a job.. Would you keep someone on your payrole that was an idiot and kept messing up the job? I wouldn't.. I think the bigger issue is that stupid people are breeding and doing it faster than smart people.. Pretty soon we won't have anywhere near the ability to support all the stupid people that can't do a decent job at anything.. then what?

and I agree totally that 'picking up and moving' isn't a 'reasonable' answer.. I really shouldn't have said that, but it is actually an option, just not normally a reasonable one..

Don't know about you, but by the time I got out college I owed ~$40,000.. not cheap.. and will prolly cost more than that for yours (given where you live and all).. but, you have to agree, getting college paid for cause you bought your own 8 year old vehicle is a pretty good deal //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif