Photos of new line arrays

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

OK.... But if you start out with a driver that is low quality, you are never going to get it to sound as good as a high quality driver.... NO MATTER HOW YOU PUT IT IN A BOX OR WHAT YOU PUT INFRONT OF IT!

The driver quality isn't really part of this discussion. You can choose to use

low or high quality drivers for any project.

Lets talk about taking any driver and improving loudspeaker performance when you make an array.

That's what the issue is about. You can make your driver perform better if you use it in an array.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/

A Bit About Line Arrays

These tests do not address usage of ribbons stacked in line arrays. A line array will spread the load among several drivers, which will lower harmonic distortion. When the level of a tweeter is lowered, the harmonic distortion is also lowered.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

SO, now lets see if you can wrap your mind around this:

Lets say that the ants are poor ants compared to the colony next to them, like they are only born with 3 legs or something. Then, because of their weakness, putting a bunch of them together still isn't going to be as good as starting out with good ants. IE the colony next to them. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

That is a totally different argument, the drivers are both in the same alignment. I dont disagree with the fact that a line array of Revelators will sound better than a line array of oem vifa buyouts (just an example).

I do disagree with the fact that a driver will sound the same (ie bad) even if all alignments are exercised.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

That wasnt the point I was trying to get across...and by using *gathering ants* as an example vs *hunting ants* totally destroys the metaphor. They have to be hunting ants for it to work, lets be specific and use the *Kiafu* of africa.
The kiafu can overwhelm animals larger then them by several orders of magnitude (ex. chickens in africa) by attacking in numbers. Ive never seen reports of preying manti (sp?) eating chickens. There have even been reports of Kiafu overwhelming humans and killing them, only for the fellow village people to discover the mutilated body much later.

Still.... Lets take these Kiafu ants and lets remove a leg or two. Now, take their ability to Hunt vs a normal ants ability to hunt. The Normal ant is going to have more of an advantage on it's own and whole colony does too. Lets take a regular cute little back and vs this notoriously nasty Kiafu ant. Which would be a better hunter? DUH, the Kiafu. Does that make sense? Do you get what I am saying?

Start out with a high quality product and add them together makes it better. Start out with a crappy product and add them together you might be lucky to come away with something decent....

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

That is a totally different argument, the drivers are both in the same alignment. I dont disagree with the fact that a line array of Revelators will sound better than a line array of oem vifa buyouts (just an example).
I do disagree with the fact that a driver will sound the same (ie bad) even if all alignments are exercised.

They don't sound the same.... The have the same basic sound..... Obviously when you put a compression driver in a horn body it won't sound the same, obviously when you are cutting the excursion in half they won't sound the same.

BUT, they will have the same BASIC sound. Meaning, if they **** to start out with they will **** in the end.... SIMPLE as that.... If you make an array out of Driver A, driver A does not all of a sudden sound like Driver B because it's in an array. It still sounds like Driver A.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

You are comparing alignments...I agree with you on this. I do NOT agree with you that a single cute black ant would be a better hunter than a whole colony (ie several million) of Kiafu. Regardless you are mutilating my metaphor...which only work in specific examples. You cant change certain details, the metaphor wont always work out if you do.

If you start off with cheap drivers, use enough of them, and implement them correctly you can drive distortion below inaudibility until you reach ear shattering levels where severe damage to the cilia in your ears is occuring.

...I dont think you're getting what im trying to say. You're treading on common ground I agree with you that high quality drivers in a line array will sound better than lower quality drivers in a line array.

I DO NOT agree with you that the specific driver will always sound bad independent of the alignment used.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

No...the characteristics that made that certain driver **** (those which cannot be corrected with electronic means, ex. high distortion) have been driven into inaudibility. It may not **** in the end if implemented correctly.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

No...the characteristics that made that certain driver **** have all but disappeared. It may not **** in the end if implemented correctly.

I don't understand why your metephore is better than mine? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I guess we will just agree to disagree, because over the internet you are NOT going to change my mind on something very logical to me and I am not going to be able to change your mind on something you find logical.

To each his own. You love your Line Arrays, I don't think they are that great. But, Line Arrays are no better than conventional speakers just as conventional speakers are no better than Line Arrays... I am just agreeing to disagree because I am tired of this shit. Nothing is the answer to everything.... FYI...

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

You can certainly tell that this is a car audio forum.

If you think you can get the same sound in a smaller package, then you should probably stick to the vehicle or simple MTM's you may be used to.

Line arrays are a totally different sound.

BTW, using NSB's is an oft-repeated way to success at an affordable cost. I don't see anyone commenting that the driver used is a low-distortion product driver.

This is truly caraudio.com at it's finest!

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

You can certainly tell that this is a car audio forum.
If you think you can get the same sound in a smaller package, then you should probably stick to the vehicle or simple MTM's you may be used to.

Line arrays are a totally different sound.

BTW, using NSB's is an oft-repeated way to success at an affordable cost. I don't see anyone commenting that the driver used is a low-distortion product driver.

This is truly caraudio.com at it's finest!

Line Array ppl are all the same.... Read what you want into everything that everyone says.... It's not like any of us know anything anyway, I am so sorry for not being in that Elite breed that you guys are in. I AM NOT WORTHY!..

LOL //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Line Array ppl are all the same.... Read what you want into everything that everyone says.... It's not like any of us know anything anyway, I am so sorry for not being in that Elite breed that you guys are in. I AM NOT WORTHY!..
LOL //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

This thread went off topic because you said on post #4 that you don't

know why so many tweeters were used.

Explaining the 'why' part is outside the scope of this thread. You need to

read up and educate yourself on how they work. But being cool as we

are, we decided to tell you the 'why' part because we have no reason

to keep secrets, not to mention this is common knowledge if you spend 10

minutes reading up on the subject using google. lol

Even thought we told you the 'why' part, you choose to ignore the 'why'

and instead, you like to keep posting on why you don't like like arrays.

If you don't like them, why not start your own thread "I hate line arrays".

This thread is a picture thread for a newly built line array project using

49 cent midranges and 85 cent tweeters, someone in cyber built the array

and posted it on the PE forum. I just linked it as an FYI.... lol

Don't be a baby.

 

[mrogowski 5,000+ posts]

They don't sound the same.... The have the same basic sound..... Obviously when you put a compression driver in a horn body it won't sound the same, obviously when you are cutting the excursion in half they won't sound the same.
BUT, they will have the same BASIC sound. Meaning, if they **** to start out with they will **** in the end.... SIMPLE as that.... If you make an array out of Driver A, driver A does not all of a sudden sound like Driver B because it's in an array. It still sounds like Driver A.

Both "sides" have made interesting arguments. Thy/Thad, I know exactly where you guys are coming from with regards to distortion, movement, etc. - less is most certainly better.

However, B&W does make a point here. Let me expand on it a bit and use a different analogy.

If we take a tweeter for example, that had a massive peak at 12-15kHz, say 10db, resulting in a shrill-like sound quality. This tweeter cost you a buck. You decided to use this unit in a line array and purchased 25 of them. You impliment the 25 tweeter line array knowing you will decrease distortion, excursion and increase SPL. That part is a real added bonus.

The downside to this is the fact that you will still have the same trademark peak at 12-15kHz resulting in a shrill-like sound quality, despite how many tweeters you have used. So the sound will still **** regardless of how many you use...

There, said my bit.

Best,

Mark

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Both "sides" have made interesting arguments. Thy/Thad, I know exactly where you guys are coming from with regards to distortion, movement, etc. - less is most certainly better.
However, B&W does make a point here. Let me expand on it a bit and use a different analogy.

If we take a tweeter for example, that had a massive peak at 12-15kHz, say 10db, resulting in a shrill-like sound quality. This tweeter cost you a buck. You decided to use this unit in a line array and purchased 25 of them. You impliment the 25 tweeter line array knowing you will decrease distortion, excursion and increase SPL. That part is a real added bonus.

The downside to this is the fact that you will still have the same trademark peak at 12-15kHz resulting in a shrill-like sound quality, despite how many tweeters you have used. So the sound will still **** regardless of how many you use...

There, said my bit.

Best,

Mark

That is an obvious scenario. You found a driver with a problem and decided to

use it in a design knowing it has a nasty gremlin. Every driver has issues,

even high end drivers.

That NSB/ApexJr line array is a bare bones design, 49 cent mids and 85 cent

tweeters. The mids have alot of potential depending on how you use them,

but the tweeters are the real bottleneck. Mylar tweeters aren't my favorite,

they need ~5khz crossover point, way too high to make a high end sound

system, but you can make a very good sound system for the money.

Here's a mylar that cost under $5. A cheaper Goldwood cost $1.85.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-840.pdf

We don't know what it really does unless you test it, but lets assume

the chart is pretty accurate, there is no obvious problems with that tweeter

other than you can only use a higher crossover point.

Here's the $4 dome good for a line array;

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-035

Actual measured data;

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/275-035g.pdf

This tweeter ain't perfect either, but you can easily work with it.

Dayton dome - $12

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-045

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/275-045g.pdf

A more expensive tweeter {not for line array}, it has issues.

Check out this tweeter; $72

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=270-145

Chart here;

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/270-145g.pdf

Nasty....

Two cheap tweeters under $5 that have a good chart. One $72 tweeter

that is nasty.

****

You can't assume that cheap drivers are bad performers. If you look at

mainstream commercial product, ie Polk, Klipsch, etc., they use very cheap

drivers if you were to take one apart. Even quality drivers have big problems

and the what seperates one manufacturer's loudspeaker from another

using the same drivers is the clever passive crossover design they use to fix

the gremlins.

 

[mrogowski 5,000+ posts]

But that is what B&W was trying to get across I believe. The sonic signature(s) of the product will remain no matter how many you use.

 

[Megalomaniac 5,000+ posts]

ants?

hmm....

i've never heard a line array so i cant say much. but from observing mentally. You are saying that a line array with a bunch poor quailty drivers in a good box will sound better than a high quaility driver. hmm i can see that... but what if u take that same box and put a bunch of high quailty drivers(assuming the same specs) in there. wouldnt the higher quailty drivers pwn the other ones?

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

i've never heard a line array so i cant say much.

A good line array is hella sweet in performance. You gotta check it out someday.

but from observing mentally. You are saying that a line array with a bunch poor quailty drivers in a good box will sound better than a high quaility driver. hmm i can see that... but what if u take that same box and put a bunch of high quailty drivers(assuming the same specs) in there. wouldnt the higher quailty drivers pwn the other ones?

Lets recap the thread so people understand.

Page 1;

someone said; holy shit 96 tweets in total how big is that office

someone said;Doesn't make sense to me....

someone said;96 tweeters is just stupid. Don't care how you try to excuse it.

Stupid.

****

An explaination was given to why you need alot of tweeters in a line array design. If you don't have alot of drivers, how can it be a line array ?

****

someone said; If you have a turd that smells.... By putting a bunch of those turds in a bag they should stop smelling.... RIGHT? NO!!!!Welcome to the world of "it doesn't make sense" line arrays.....

Here is where the problem starts. People were assuming that the drivers

used were low quality. How do they know if the drivers are low quality or not?

They don't. They looked at the price of the midrange, 49 cents; 85 cents for

the tweeter, and assumed the drivers are poor in quality and don't sound good.

The second assumption.

They assumed the design is bad even though we don't know anything about the

crossover design. Even high end drivers can have nasty gremlins, but nobody

seems to complains about them, lol ... You can alter driver performance with clever crossover design.

****

The issue really isn't about 'bad driver' vs. 'good driver', the issue is how to

increase performance of ' a driver' if you use it in a line array design.

For instance, headphone drivers are excellent in sound, but they need to be close

to your ear to hear higher SPL than listening to the driver from far away. If you use

drivers that are good sounding at lower SPL, but their distortion rises alot when you

want normal SPL from the speaker system, that driver isn't a good candidate in a standalone

design, but if you were to make an array, performance rises. A line array of headphone

drivers would make a funny project BTW... lol

My PT2 planar tweeter cost $25. Standalone it's nothing special. Sounds great at low

SPL, but distortion rises if you push it to a higher SPL level. But in a proper line array design,

the SPL level rises alot at the low distortion output of each tweeter. The line array 'effect'

is what hits the home run. MORE is ALOT better.