You simply cannot dismiss a driver because it sounds bad in a certain alignment, compression drivers, a subwoofer with a >.8 Qts, and seas excel magnesium cone drivers for example. The CDs would sound absolutely atrocious and inconsistent with what you've heard from them if not mated with the appropriate waveguide. The Seas Excel drivers (albeit incredibly nice) are very tricky drivers to use and if crossed incorrectly, they can be extremely shrill and metallic sounding. The subwoofer with a >.8 Qts has potential to sound fantastic in an IB alignment, but if thrown in a ported box it will probably sound like poo. The main characteristics of a driver are dictated by the distortion it produces (some of which you find favorable), and in an alignment which exponentially lowers the distortion produced (such as a horn or line array) the driver sounds completely different and is no longer comparable. The driver may sound like poo in a certain alignment...but in another it can sound absolutely phenomenal if implemented correctly.
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
Thy and Thad should get together and build some fun Line Arrays.....
ngsm13
5,000+ posts
BSEE
Penis.
nG
nG
lol...your ignorance is an extremely hard membrane to penetrate. All I was trying to get across to you was that specific drivers in different alignments are incomparable, which apparently is a difficult concept for you to grasp.
- Thread Starter
- #35
Although I do agree that thylantyr has an excessively *enthusiastic* love for line arrays
Thadman and I have been in private discussion as he is on his own line array
quest. Originally, I just happened to response to his line array thread on this
forum. I encouraged him to investigate this issue more and he posted the same
types of questions that we talked about in private on many other forums, to
get more feedback. More data is good. Don't trust one source, not even me.
Always verify.
I've been tracking the forum responses to his 'hard questions' and the majority
of the people just reply with 'off the shelf' answers. Some replies are good
from people with real experience. I've also noticed that many people in the DIY
world are closed minded to audio. They are afraid to experiment. Some of these
problems raised have simple answers. It's not my fault that I can offer an answer
to a simple problem I see. The solution may be weird, but it may work. You can
digest what I say, ignore what I say, confirm what I say, but in the end you
should experiment to find out what works for you.
Example;
One issue was 'what tweeters to use' ? There are two dome candidates
that cost $4 each. On other forums, people will dissuade him from trying
those tweeters. I told him to buy four of each type, a $32 experiment.
Do a four stack line array SQ test and see which one of the two types of
tweeters works best. The issue was low crossover point vs. CTC spacing,
which has more audible gremlins ?
The common answer from others is 'don't use those tweeters'.
My solution is simple. Buy a few, try them out and pick the lesser of the evils. Find the performance
envelope of the driver before you design with it.
This to me is basic troubleshooting a problem 101 class.
Thadman and I have been in private discussion as he is on his own line array
quest. Originally, I just happened to response to his line array thread on this
forum. I encouraged him to investigate this issue more and he posted the same
types of questions that we talked about in private on many other forums, to
get more feedback. More data is good. Don't trust one source, not even me.
Always verify.
I've been tracking the forum responses to his 'hard questions' and the majority
of the people just reply with 'off the shelf' answers. Some replies are good
from people with real experience. I've also noticed that many people in the DIY
world are closed minded to audio. They are afraid to experiment. Some of these
problems raised have simple answers. It's not my fault that I can offer an answer
to a simple problem I see. The solution may be weird, but it may work. You can
digest what I say, ignore what I say, confirm what I say, but in the end you
should experiment to find out what works for you.
Example;
One issue was 'what tweeters to use' ? There are two dome candidates
that cost $4 each. On other forums, people will dissuade him from trying
those tweeters. I told him to buy four of each type, a $32 experiment.
Do a four stack line array SQ test and see which one of the two types of
tweeters works best. The issue was low crossover point vs. CTC spacing,
which has more audible gremlins ?
The common answer from others is 'don't use those tweeters'.
My solution is simple. Buy a few, try them out and pick the lesser of the evils. Find the performance
envelope of the driver before you design with it.
This to me is basic troubleshooting a problem 101 class.
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
Uhh no... A horn loaded speakers still sounds basically like the base speaker. A bunch of drivers together will still sound like the original driver. Try it sometime, I have....
BTW, every home audio line array guy is exactly the same..... You all get along very well knowing that your system is so much cheaper than mine and it sounds so much better..... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif What you guys don't get is how ignorant you are because you don't listen to anything but your line array what you want to hear BS.
ngsm13
5,000+ posts
BSEE
I am grasping myself right about now.
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif
nG
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif
nG
...apparently you didnt read my post. You are putting words in my mouth. Here, I'll quote the essential part of my post so its easier for you to read.
Hmmm... did I ever talk about hornloading a conventional loudspeaker? (The answer is no, if it hasnt already been conveyed to you) I used a compression driver without the aid of its waveguide as an example. It will sound inescapably different from the same driver in the waveguide in several ways. First the dispersion will be completely different and uncontrolled, second the waves will wrap around the driver and diffract all over the place, and third since the CD isnt mated to the waveguide it will have very low efficiency and much higher distortion.
The compression driver loses its main strengths when in the absence of the waveguide (high efficiency, low distortion, controlled dispersion).
In the same way that some specific drivers lose their main strength when in the absence of being used in large quantities (much lower distortion on the order of several magnitudes, extreme dynamics, the ability to extend octaves above and below the drivers regular passband, and linesource radiation pattern ie very little floor/ceiling interaction)
Beat_Dominator
5,000+ posts
Yea, thats Mecha Godzilla
I guess not //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crying.gif.ec0ebefe590df0251476573bc49e46d8.gif
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
OK.... But if you start out with a driver that is low quality, you are never going to get it to sound as good as a high quality driver.... NO MATTER HOW YOU PUT IT IN A BOX OR WHAT YOU PUT INFRONT OF IT!
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
It's not like I haven't tried.... I just don't like being call ignorant for something that I know to be true.
I guess I should know that DIY and Line Arrays are better than everything else.... I must just be an idiot. Beat, you better sell your ML's and start over....
Theres your ignorance speaking for you...
The only concept im trying to get across to you is this
a driver (albeit poor performing in a certain alignment) has the potentiality to sound fantastic if implemented correctly.
I've used several examples to reinforce the concept, and you've done nothing to disprove them only disagreeing with me.
you can apply that concept to the drivers used in line arrays.
Here is an example that might be a little easier for you to grasp, ants. On their own they are very poor predators in comparison to their prey, but when unified and hunting in large quantities they are able to overwhelm creatures several times their size.
The only concept im trying to get across to you is this
a driver (albeit poor performing in a certain alignment) has the potentiality to sound fantastic if implemented correctly.
I've used several examples to reinforce the concept, and you've done nothing to disprove them only disagreeing with me.
you can apply that concept to the drivers used in line arrays.
Here is an example that might be a little easier for you to grasp, ants. On their own they are very poor predators in comparison to their prey, but when unified and hunting in large quantities they are able to overwhelm creatures several times their size.
I havent stated in ANY of my posts that DIY and line arrays are solution to everything. You surely are not an idiot for disagreeing with that.
BUT
you are being extremely ignorant (ie you are an idiot because) by believing that certain drivers cant sound fantastic in certain alignments.
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
That example is worse than my turd one....
Ants really aren't hunters either, they seem to be more like gatherers. Ants don't kill anything, some might but lets talk about those cute little black ants. Just for the sake of argument let us say that you are right.
SO, now lets see if you can wrap your mind around this:
Lets say that the ants are poor ants compared to the colony next to them, like they are only born with 3 legs or something. Then, because of their weakness, putting a bunch of them together still isn't going to be as good as starting out with good ants. IE the colony next to them. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
That wasnt the point I was trying to get across...and by using *gathering ants* as an example vs *hunting ants* totally destroys the metaphor. They have to be hunting ants for it to work, lets be specific and use the *Kiafu* of africa.
The kiafu can overwhelm animals larger then them by several orders of magnitude (ex. chickens in africa) by attacking in great numbers. Ive never seen reports of a single kiafu eating chickens. There have even been reports of Kiafu overwhelming humans and killing them, only for the fellow village people to discover the mutilated body much later.
The kiafu can overwhelm animals larger then them by several orders of magnitude (ex. chickens in africa) by attacking in great numbers. Ive never seen reports of a single kiafu eating chickens. There have even been reports of Kiafu overwhelming humans and killing them, only for the fellow village people to discover the mutilated body much later.
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