Photos of new line arrays

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

I'd rather get the same sound, out of a smaller package.

Less is more.

More impressive as well.

nG

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

I don't need you to "dumb" anything down anymore.... I wouldn't mind if you left and never came back...

You know... I think the only reason you post on this forum is so you can make your e-go feel bigger. I'm sure a lot of people disagree with you on other forums. Little car audio kids dig your big loud line arrays....

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

What was the cost of the project?

NSB = nickname given to a Partsexpress 'buyout' Pioneer 4" full range midwoofer.

[sold out]

Many people were buying these up over a year ago for 49 cents each. I bought

a bunch when PE had a 'free shipping' weekend. Shipping cost ~$1 per driver

due to weight. lol ... They are great drivers with lacquer cone treatment mod

and they are excellent for line arrays. I made a budget array also using those drivers -> http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/

The project being discussed in this thread, the 'NSB/ApexJr line array';

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/

Probably cost;

32 NSB = ~ $16 + $32 shipping = $48 for midwoofers unless you got free shipping

or went to PE to pick them up yourself. In theory, as low as $16 for all the mids.

The Apex Jr. tweeters cost 85 cents to $1.00 each.

http://www.apexjr.com/speakerstuff.html

Lets assume you bought 100 tweeters: $85 plus shipping.

Total driver cost: Anywhere from $100 - $175 for drivers.

You need a crossover, building supplies, lots of labor, etc.

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

I do wonder why he even comes to this site.

It's http://www.caraudio.com

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

nG

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

If you have a turd that smells.... By putting a bunch of those turds in a bag they should stop smelling.... RIGHT? NO!!!!
Welcome to the world of "it doesn't make sense" line arrays.....

Although I do agree that thylantyr has an excessively *enthusiastic* love for line arrays, he is not an idiot by any means. I cannot say the same for you, that is an amazingly ignorant statement by you my friend...and a terrible metaphor. Your ignorance of the subject is no excuse...just because it doesn't make sense to you or conform with your elitist disposition does NOT make it a bad concept. Sound isnt magic, its all physics.

If you knew how line arrays worked, maybe you would understand. The speakers all work in conjunction with each other and spread the load across multiple speakers to create 1 homogeneous wavefront.

For example, by going with 2 speakers the excursion requirements drop 50% and im sure you're aware that distortion is proportional to linear travel. The two drivers in conjunction probably have much less than 50% of the original distortion, because they will be much more linear in their paths (if you've looked at a BL curve before, you can see that motor strength behaves more exponentially than it does linearly(sp?))

In an optimal line array where you are using say 16 4-5" drivers per tower, the excursion requirements are alleviated to 6% of the original demand. (6%...the drivers are hardly moving)

lets use the RS125-4 as an example

Zaph tested this speaker to have a sensitivity of 82.65dB

-one of these speakers peaked at .5% distortion (2nd harmonic), although averaging .3% distortion @ 94dB 1/2 meter (88dB @ 1m, roughly ~4 watts)

-in a line array configuration you can achieve roughly 118-119dB+ with the same inaudible distortion levels. (6dB+ for the addition of the second tower, as im sure most of us these days listen to music in stereo)

If you havent already guessed, the end result of using these in a line array is almost limitless dynamics, unprecedented clarity, and very little floor/ceiling interaction.

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

I'd rather get the same sound, out of a smaller package.
Less is more.

More impressive as well.

nG

Small line array is an oxymoron. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

non line array speaker vs. line array speaker will have a different sound.

You won't get line array 'sound' from a non line array speaker. You can get

a different sound from a the small speaker that is excellent.

If you want a killer 3 way loudspeaker with a single tweeter, midrange,

woofer per tower, then add external sub, I have a recipe for that and it will be

very impressive. I wouldn't be afraid to challenge the Wilson X2 speaker with it.

But, most people can't afford the drivers for that project, the drivers are esoteric.

You will be impressed by the sound vs. a good line array but it won't sound

the same as the line array.

But imagine now if you took those killer drivers and expanded the design into a

line array? You will hear something that you have never heard before because a

system like that doesn't exist in the world to audition.

 

[skeptikal Premium Member]

I do wonder why he even comes to this site.
It's http://www.caraudio.com

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

nG

look at the section of the forum we are in.....

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

tell goob to get rid of it and make it CARaudio.com

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

That is an amazingly ignorant statement by you my friend...and a terrible metaphor.
If you knew how line arrays worked, maybe you would understand. The speakers all work in conjunction with each other and spread the load across multiple speakers to create 1 homogeneous wavefront.

For example, by going with 2 speakers the excursion requirements drop 50% and im sure you're aware that distortion is directly related to linear travel.

In an optimal line array where you are using say 16 4-5" drivers, the excursion requirements are alleviated to 6% of the original demand. (6%...the drivers are hardly moving)

lets use the RS125-4 as an example

Zaph tested this speaker to have a sensitivity of 82.65dB

-one of these speakers peaked at .5% distortion (2nd harmonic), although averaging .3% distortion @ 94dB 1/2 meter (88dB @ 1m, roughly ~4 watts)

-in a line array configuration you can achieve roughly 112-113dB+ with the same inaudible distortion levels.

If you havent already guessed, the result of using these in a line array result in almost limitless dynamics, unprecedented clarity, and very little floor/ceiling interaction.

Well basically if a driver sounds BAD, it doesn't matter how low the bloody distortion is it will always sound bad. Your excursion is halved yes and your distortion goes down yes but it still doesn't help if you use a junk driver.

I have nothing against a line array as an idea. I just have never heard one I liked. And, I especially don't like being preached to about something. Most people do not have the room size or money to implement a line array correctly. I am sure 90% of the people on here that are interested in this section and building a system do not have the resources needed. So, why preach about something that isn't going to work for most people?

Yes, they look cool, they do sound good to some people, but not practical here....

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

Let me ask you, have you ever heard a properly implemented horn setup? If so, could you comment on what you liked/disliked about it (excluding its dispersion pattern)?

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

Can't we all be fwiends?? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/blush.gif.99bc659ee2012b7d826165e26fb5eebe.gif

 

[BASSMEKANIK 10+ year member]

major overkill IMO...

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

You know... I think the only reason you post on this forum is so you can make your e-go feel bigger.

Have you checked out your sig. A picture will all your gear and big

claims "King of the home audio section.... "..

You want to be the 'King' but you will have to wait until I die because

you won't even pass up my 23 years of audio and 30 years of electronics

experience until then.... lol

Your pro audio experience hasn't taught you well. If anyone who should

know how a line array works is *you*. But you have no idea how they

work and show no interest in understanding them even if I'm patient with

you posting details on how they work. Your mind is closed.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with you on other forums.

I visit at least 10 audio related forums daily, this is one of them.

People argue on forums all the time, any topic. It's human nature to have

debates. Of course people argue with me, but I have supporting data to backup

my claims.

Little car audio kids dig your big loud line arrays....

Insulting the 'kids' who hang out on the caraudio.com , I wonder

what they have to say about you ? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I was involved with car audio for 10 years so the car audio forums are still

interesting to me, but I'm doing home audio right now.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Let me ask you, have you ever heard a properly implemented horn setup? If so, could you comment on what you liked/disliked about it (excluding its dispersion pattern)?

Yes I have heard horn setups... And horn setups are decent.

Horn setups... What do you want me to say??? Biggest thing that I don't like about horns is there is always hot spots in the sound. Meaning, there is always a point in the frequency spectrum where there is smearing. The great thing about horns is their coverage and sound stage. They are very open and if implemented correctly with correct phase compensation very clear (despite the added distortion from a Constant Directivity Horn).

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Well basically if a driver sounds BAD, it doesn't matter how low the bloody distortion is it will always sound bad.

Why do you assume the NSB midwoofer sounds bad? Once again you

are judging a product by the price tag. You assume a 49 cent buyout driver

is bad sounding. Don't assume.

Here's the skinny. Those drivers bandpassed sound very good. Add some

simple cone treatments and SQ rises. I've done these tests. I've done

auditions with people using $100 mids vs. 49 cent modded mid.

Price tag alone won't tell you how it sounds.

Aside from FR which can be tweaked, distortion rises with output. If distortion is low at low SPL, the sound is very good. The line array 'effect' will give you the higher SPL as each driver is barely doing any work. That's why you need a big array to make it so. Small arrays are not as sweet and sorta useless. A four NSB

array can't compete with a 16 - 20 NSB tower. To get those four drivers

to give you the same SPL at the big array, distortion is too high and it will

sound nasty, but you will also blow up the drivers.

Why assume that a $1 - $4 tweeter is bad sounding? The trick is to know

it's limitations and work with it. By choosing the 'qty', proper CTC spacing,

best wiring, you can optimize performance.

If you really want to push these systems to their full potential, use a digital

crossover. The popular one has delays, parametric EQ, etc., tweak the sound

with signal processing.

If you have pro audio experience, you should already know this.

I have nothing against a line array as an idea.

Why are your posts always anti-line array ?

I just have never heard one I liked.

Blame the manufacturer that made the array you didn't like. Look at the design

and see if they made fatal flaws. That's what I did. In the other thread I told

you how those commercial systems are flawed. You place too much faith in

store bought product and assume they engineered it well. It's not the case

with speakers. It's more BS marketing than quality product.

Most people do not have the room size or money to implement a line array correctly.

You don't have to be dissuade if theory tells you something. You can bend

the rules. I can listen to my line array from 3 feet or 100 feet, it works.

Up close is an interesting experience, it's pretty cool really. I place the

lazyboy chair and rotate the budget array so the drivers point at me *or*

I just kick back 12 feet away and enjoy it, both setups have a different effect,

it's all good. Like a girlfriend that does many feats //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I am sure 90% of the people on here that are interested in this section and building a system do not have the resources needed. So, why preach about something that isn't going to work for most people?

Who' preaching? I posted a link of a new DIY line array. I posted it because

it's a DIY speaker. The driver cost is $100 - $175. If I posted a link to

Zaph's new MTM using Seas drivers costing $600, why is that more acceptable? lol

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

You know... I think the only reason you post on this forum is so you can make your e-go feel bigger.
Have you checked out your sig. A picture will all your gear and big

claims "King of the home audio section.... "..

You want to be the 'King' but you will have to wait until I die because

you won't even pass up my 23 years of audio and 30 years of electronics

experience until then.... lol

Your pro audio experience hasn't taught you well. If anyone who should

know how a line array works is *you*. But you have no idea how they

work and show no interest in understanding them even if I'm patient with

you posting details on how they work. Your mind is closed.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with you on other forums.

I visit at least 10 audio related forums daily, this is one of them.

People argue on forums all the time, any topic. It's human nature to have

debates. Of course people argue with me, but I have supporting data to backup

my claims.

Little car audio kids dig your big loud line arrays....

Insulting the 'kids' who hang out on the caraudio.com , I wonder

what they have to say about you ? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I was involved with car audio for 10 years so the car audio forums are still

interesting to me, but I'm doing home audio right now.

I put that "king of the home audio section" in as a joke with me and some other forum members. And I also put my equipment list in my sig because I get so many PM's and IM's asking what are your speakers you use, what is this, what is that. It saves me time, because I don't live on the Internet like some people do.

Oh and the reason in Pro-Audio we use Line Arrays (Curvilinear) is for coverage. It gives you the capability to cover a large area evenly by coupling the drivers. You are building a Line source which is an essential column speaker. Pro-PA "Line Arrays" are NOTHING like what you guys build. They are VERY much different. There is not 90 some drivers just for high end.

Let's take a Meyer M3D system vs a Conventional MSL-6 for example...

First up the M3D. Lets say you do an array of 10 boxes a side. That would be 2 horns and 4 15" per box. So 20 horns and 40 15"

Now, lets look at a MSL-6 rig of 10 boxes per side. That would be 3 horns and 2 12" per box. So 30 horns and 20 12".

Now, there is not much difference in volume and system capability. There is not much difference in the drivers. The big difference is in the direct coverage. With a line array system you can cover almost every seat in the house equally, because of the ability to control each box in the array.

Oh, and I don't have much of a problem with most of the people on this forum. I just don't like some....