Old School to now

[llebcire]

I’m glad I found this forum!

Although I’m a newbie to the forum, I’m not new to car audio, at least not old school car audio, as I used to work as an installer in the early 90’s. As I got the bug a week ago to research upgrading my factory system, I’m a little confused by what I’m seeing as it relates to amplifier power.

First, a little history. When I was installing, I worked at a shop that sold Phoenix Gold, Lanzar, Alpine, Kicker, Denon, Oz Audio, Sony and Blade (although we sold very little Blade). We would sell a ton of MS275 & MS2125s, Opti100s and 200s, Kicker Competition and Solobarics (original round) along with Oz Audio driven by Alpine, Denon or Sony head units. For our larger systems, we would install upgraded (175 amp+) alternators along with banks of Optima batteries and stiffening caps. 1,000+ watts of power was a big deal, expensive, and needed substantial upgrades to the charging systems to handle it.

Fast forward to today and I’m seeing crazy power ratings for minimal costs. Is this due to most manufacturers going to all digital amps? In my day amplifiers were all class AB and while the Blade (Class D) was ahead of its time it sounded terrible. While I assume the same marketing games are played, selling an amp’s power based on a 1KHz sine wave at 14.4 volts and between 1 and 10 % distortion, if most of the current amplifiers ratings are realistic this is incredible.

If everyone’s going digital, then I assume the audio quality is better? The best sounding system I had in one of my cars was a Denon head, Precision Power parametric equalizer, Phoenix Gold crossover, Lanzar amps (sounded better than Precision Power, Phoenix Gold, Rockford Fosgate, Soundstream in my opinion), Oz Audio components and an Oz 12 – maybe I should just find those old components? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif In 2006 I did an upgrade to my Nissan’s Bose system adding a pair of Punch Series 1 12’s along with a P3001 amp and was impressed – Rockford subs were never “musical” in the past and were always used to create SPL.

My goal is to add to my factory Honda system in my Accord Coupe, initially with a single 12” and a mono block amp. Of course, once I start I’ll end up replacing all the OEM speakers with a 4 channel amp while leaving the factory head for cosmetics.

As I’m looking around I see that Class A/B amps are still available and used for mids/highs (or full range) which Class D amps are used for subs? As a company like Zapco is doing this it must be how the industry has gone? Additionally, the price of these amps is substantially less than I expected!

-Eric

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[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Everybody is moving to class D across the board. D does not mean Digital.

Smaller foot print, way better efficiency, more power for the money.

People can't tell which is which in a blind test ever. And most of the top cars that compete in sound quality are using class D. It's just so much more clean power.

Every brand you knew in the 90s has either been bought out multiple times or just sells mass market products.

We have way better box modeling software. Even the worst sounding subs can do very well now.

And the DSP market is growing as the head unit market is shrinking.

We now know you don't need sealed boxes to sound good

We now know a clean watt will always sound the same as any other clean watt

We also know you don't need small subs to hit fast and large subs to play low.

We can get single 12s to hang with a full blown clamshell of the 90s.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Everybody is moving to class D across the board. D does not mean Digital. Smaller foot print, way better efficiency, more power for the money.

People can't tell which is which in a blind test ever. And most of the top cars that compete in sound quality are using class D. It's just so much more clean power.

Every brand you knew in the 90s has either been bought out multiple times or just sells mass market products.

We have way better box modeling software. Even the worst sounding subs can do very well now.

And the DSP market is growing as the head unit market is shrinking.

We now know you don't need sealed boxes to sound good

We now know a clean watt will always sound the same as any other clean watt

We also know you don't need small subs to hit fast and large subs to play low.

We can get single 12s to hang with a full blown clamshell of the 90s.

whats a clean watt? KMSL

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

whats a clean watt? KMSL

Um one with no distortion maybe? Are you serious

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Um one with no distortion maybe? Are you serious

you mean a cleak output signal? i don't think you grasp how amplifiers actually work. transistors caps even circuits have a unique sound. the amplifier RECREATES the signal amplified.

you can have a low THD but the actual reproduction of the signal can vary. processing can limit distortion is many ways but actual amplification ISN'T the same

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

you mean a cleak output signal? i don't think you grasp how amplifiers actually work. transistors caps even circuits have a unique sound. the amplifier RECREATES the signal amplified. you can have a low THD but the actual reproduction of the signal can vary. processing can limit distortion is many ways but actual amplification ISN'T the same

Got any pictures of differently shaped waveforms when playing a 35 hz since wave through 2 different amplifiers?

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Got any pictures of differently shaped waveforms when playing a 35 hz since wave through 2 different amplifiers?

i bet if you hook up a reactive load driven near its limits you see a huge variance

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

you mean a cleak output signal? i don't think you grasp how amplifiers actually work. transistors caps even circuits have a unique sound. the amplifier RECREATES the signal amplified. you can have a low THD but the actual reproduction of the signal can vary. processing can limit distortion is many ways but actual amplification ISN'T the same

Listen. We have been over this. I've given you ever thing straight from documented facts.

Nobody can tell the difference. I don't think you grasp what's really happening.

No they all do not amplifiy the same. That does not have anything to do with what comes out of the output section. If it did we would still have A/B everywhere because they would be a edge. But we don't because they don't. Again, it's proven and highly documented.

You can give up, you can't win this

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

i bet if you hook up a reactive load driven near its limits you see a huge variance

You can bet all day. You will lose

I guess 35hz of class D sounds different then 35hz of A/B.

Come on out to USACi next march. I'll **** you with my class D

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

i bet if you hook up a reactive load driven near its limits you see a huge variance

I don't disagree with that statement, but that's not what was being discussed.

 

[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

I still have and run my old school Zeds,and others.Still work great and still sound really clean/nice.I run a mixture as well of A/B and class D. THD is still a great factor to consider when buying new and old in my opinion.Id rather have closer to a lower TDH,than a higher TDH newer amp.Some older amps are better than new, and some newer amps are better than the older.The majority, if not all are no longer being made here at home/USA,and most with cheaper parts.Id research before buying

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Listen. We have been over this. I've given you ever thing straight from documented facts. Nobody can tell the difference. I don't think you grasp what's really happening.

No they all do not amplifiy the same. That does not have anything to do with what comes out of the output section. If it did we would still have A/B everywhere because they would be a edge. But we don't because they don't. Again, it's proven and highly documented.

You can give up, you can't win this

There is a difference. once you modify the signal with so much processing the signal will sound extremely similar as you are CHANGING THE INITIAL SIGNAL.

A/B is noticeably better in nearly every situation why in the hell you think high end HIFI still uses a b and AB?

nothing is proven. its simply proven that a high processed and modified signal is nearly impossible to distinguish and very low levels in ideal situations but if you where right people would be winning with gear from autozone instead of spending 5kw on processors amps EQs..

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Papermaker who has nothing vs Richard Clark who actually has documented test over YEARS.

Here OP. You will always have people that can't see reality when it punches them in the face. Also look at the last two recorded breaking SQ cars. Mark Eldridge and Scott Bulwalda. Plenty of info on both of those people on the net. Both used made in China class D amps. And there are countless more. I have a few wins myself with them. And I also know how to critical listen.

Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

I don't disagree with that statement, but that's not what was being discussed.

no thats EXACTLY the point. i can get a autozone amp to do the same as a arc sig within it limits but how if actually controls the load is a WHOLE different story.. we dont listen the amp we listen to electromotive transducers.

i can build a 100x2 with a ultra low THD that actually has terrible dampening and a terrible sonic signature after parts get hot and you start to drive it to its limits etc... AND NO head room isn't always the answer its simply properly designing the amplifier to SOUND GOOD not to have low THD or high dampening factor etc....

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

There is a difference. once you modify the signal with so much processing the signal will sound extremely similar as you are CHANGING THE INITIAL SIGNAL. A/B is noticeably better in nearly every situation why in the hell you think high end HIFI still uses a b and AB?

nothing is proven. its simply proven that a high processed and modified signal is nearly impossible to distinguish and very low levels in ideal situations but if you where right people would be winning with gear from autozone instead of spending 5kw on processors amps EQs..

It doesn't matter what kind of amplifier you use. You will always have to tune around the car. So in either case for the best results it will have to be processed. And Richard even said they could use EQ. He didn't say they had to.