New System Tuning... A bit unsure :-\

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

*** BEWARE, LOTS OF INFO HERE LOL ***

Hey guys, I've been sitting at my PC for the last 2-3 hours just reading up here and elsewhere around the net about tuning your system, crossovers, slopes, EQ'ing, polarity, etc. But despite all that, I'm still quite unsure of how to attack my system, and some help from you experienced guys would be great! So to start off, I'll lay down what my system consists of and what my goal is...

I have in my car right now:

~ Pioneer 6900UB HU

~ Phoenix Gold RSd 6.5" Components (midbass in bottom-front of door and tweet in top-front of door)

~ Alpine PDX2.150 powering the RSd's (150wrms per channel)

~ Dayton Reference 10" HO (.7 ft.^3 box, tuned to 30Hz)

~ Alpine PDX1.600 powering the Dayton (600wrms mono)

~ Stock rear coaxials faded most of the way out

Now I'm quite pleased with my system and it's a MILLION times better than my stock stereo, which I began to ditch 8 months ago. However, I'm not sure how to get the most out of my system and the best SQ. Currently I have the RSd's running passive and high passed at 80Hz w/ 12dB slope off the HU. The Dayton is low passed at 63Hz w/ 18dB slope off the HU. I have the Dayton reversed polarity because I believe it's more in tune/time with the front stage. The EQ on the HU has 50/125/315/800/2000/5000/12500 Hz bands for adjustment. Currently the 50 is at 0, the 125 is at +4, the 315 is at -1, the 800 is at 0, the 2000 is at 0, the 5000 is at +2, and the 12500 is at +3. The system sounds PRETTY good how it is, but I find myself having to adjust the sub output on almost ever single song and boosting certain levels in the EQ once ever 3-4 songs due to either too much or too little brightness or bass.

So here are my options for adjustment, I can either use the HU's built in HPF and LPF which have 50/63/80/100/125/160/200 Hz steps with a -12db/oct slope on the HPF and -18db/oct slope on the LPF. OR I can use my crossovers built into the amps for finer tuning, anywhere from 50-200Hz, with a -12db/oct slope for the front stage and a -24db/oct slope for the substage. OR I can use a combination of the HU and Amp crossovers (ie. front stage crossed on the HU and sub stage crossed on the Amps). I read that an 18dB/oct slope is unfavorable in most situations, so it seems that the better option would be to use the amp for the crossover on the sub stage. Unfortunately, my HU is locked at -12/-18, HPF/LPF, until further notice... I sent an email to Pioneer Support because the website lists -6/-12/-18 for the crossovers, but I cannot find ANY settings anywhere or anything in the manual as to how to change the slopes. :-\

If anyone could help me it would be GREAT! I know it may be hard to make sense of all that I said, but I thought I should give you as much info as possible as to my situation! I've already tried my LPF/HPF at 50/63 on the HU and it sounded almost the same as it does at 63/80, except the midbass seemed a BIT more clear and emphasized at 50/63, probably because it was coming mostly from the front stage as opposed to the sub.

Anyway, if anyone has ANY ideas, it would be of GREAT assistance! And any input is appreciated! Essentially, what I'm seeking is just a more crisp/clear sound with a good balance between sub and front stage output... I have the ability to boost/cut the sub output by +6/-24 dB's so for tuning at least, the gains can be disregarded since I can adjust output either way to compensate...

Thanks in advance to anyone that tries to help out!

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[azeroth123 10+ year member]

for finer tuning you would probably need an external crossover, most amp built in crossovers are hit and miss at best if your are looking for a certain frequency w/o a meter

 

[mikey7182 10+ year member]

That's weird...I checked their site and it says the same thing. But in the owner's manual, on pg. 69, it lists the slopes as being -12db/oct for the HPF and -18db/oct for the LPF. Bummer. Maybe you can get Pioneer to ship you a 7900 for falsely advertising the 6900 //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Other than that, amps are your only option besides buying some sort of active xover to run inline between your deck and amp. But by the time you spend that money, you could have sold your 6900 and bought a 7900, 9800, or Alpine 9887. I'd see if Pioneer is willing to do anything for you...

As far as your sound goes, it is all subjective, because it's really about what you like, but looking at your HPF/LPF, it seems you might have a small hole in your sound, because the sub is crossing over at a steeper slope than the mids, and at a lower frequency. I'd bump it up to 80Hz@-18db/oct and see if that helps your sub stage any. Also, are your doors deadened? If not that will help with the midbass response from your mids so your sub isn't trying to do all the work. You've also got your EQ at +4@125Hz, which is gonna bring a lot of sound out of your mids. This may be the reason you feel your sub isn't "keeping up."

Also, you didn't mention, but if "Loudness" is on, turn it off. Then adjust your EQ. This will give you more of a baseline than with the added adjustments that the Loudness feature makes for you. Some of the older Pioneer decks also had something called FIE, or Front Image Enhancer. If yours has it, turn that off too. Give yourself as neutral of a starting point as possible from which to adjust the EQ and xover settings. Then go from there. Hope that helps!

Mike

 

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

That's weird...I checked their site and it says the same thing. But in the owner's manual, on pg. 69, it lists the slopes as being -12db/oct for the HPF and -18db/oct for the LPF. Bummer. Maybe you can get Pioneer to ship you a 7900 for falsely advertising the 6900 //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
Other than that, amps are your only option besides buying some sort of active xover to run inline between your deck and amp. But by the time you spend that money, you could have sold your 6900 and bought a 7900, 9800, or Alpine 9887. I'd see if Pioneer is willing to do anything for you...

As far as your sound goes, it is all subjective, because it's really about what you like, but looking at your HPF/LPF, it seems you might have a small hole in your sound, because the sub is crossing over at a steeper slope than the mids, and at a lower frequency. I'd bump it up to 80Hz@-18db/oct and see if that helps your sub stage any. Also, are your doors deadened? If not that will help with the midbass response from your mids so your sub isn't trying to do all the work. You've also got your EQ at +4@125Hz, which is gonna bring a lot of sound out of your mids. This may be the reason you feel your sub isn't "keeping up."

Also, you didn't mention, but if "Loudness" is on, turn it off. Then adjust your EQ. This will give you more of a baseline than with the added adjustments that the Loudness feature makes for you. Some of the older Pioneer decks also had something called FIE, or Front Image Enhancer. If yours has it, turn that off too. Give yourself as neutral of a starting point as possible from which to adjust the EQ and xover settings. Then go from there. Hope that helps!

Mike

Thanks mike, you were a GREAT help. And to respond to your questions, yes my doors are deadened with 3 layers of eDead v1.2 and no loudness is on. You have a good point about possible RMA'ing my unit, which would be nice to get a free upgrade, but I know it would probably take them FOREVER to send me a new one unless they did cross-shipping. But I have sent their tech. support an email to see if there is some SECRET setting for the x-over slopes.

But anyway, I think I may have actually gotten my system into better tuning now... Like you guys said, I set the EQ to completely flat and the LPF/HPF to 50/63 and turned all boosts, etc. off. The sound was good, much clearer and less distorted at high volumes, however, I wanted more powerful sound, more warmth from the set, so I boosted the 125Hz band by 1, as well as the 5000 and 12500Hz bands by 1 and 2 respectively. Helped brighten up the highs a little bit and add a bit more oompf to the sound. I'm gonna try a 63/80 x-over config next time I go out and test it out for a bit better midbass. Perhaps I will boost the 315Hz a step as well to get a little bit extra.

Is it better to boost what you want more of or cut the other frequencies so it looks the same visually, only shifted down a few notches so the highest level is at 0dB boost?

Thanks in advance!

 

[tsenfw 10+ year member]

Are you saying you have your LPF at 50hz and your HPF at 63hz? Doesn't that leave a big hole where you don't hear sound between that 13hz?

 

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

Are you saying you have your LPF at 50hz and your HPF at 63hz? Doesn't that leave a big hole where you don't hear sound between that 13hz?

Well that's what I'm trying to work out. If you cross them at the same frequency, you'll get peaks in the sound one octave up and down from the cross, because the crossover doesn't just CUT frequency at it's set level, it has a roll off and the sound is just attenuated at a certain rate per octave. Because my sub rolls off at -18dB/oct and the mids at -12dB/oct, a LPF/HPF setting of 55-57/63 would probably be best, but all I have to work with via Head Unit is 50/63/80/100/125/160/200Hz steps.

On my amp it's a different story, there is infinitely fine tuning of the frequency, but the roll off is different as well. I don't want to have my 55-70Hz range exaggerated because of the sub and mids being crossed at the same frequency and the amount of sound there piling up... Using a gap in between subs and mids, mids and highs is not uncommon, many people do it depending on how they run crossovers.

 

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

Well on the bright side, I tried crossing the HPF and LPF both at 63 and it sounds rather nice. My EQ is only boosted by 1 on the 125, 5000, and 12500 bands, everything else is flat. Songs a VERY clear and I've heard things that I never did before in some songs. Bass is no longer TOO boomy on rap/techno/heavy bass tracks, though midbass is a little lacking on some rock songs. Just lacking the warmth in the 100-350 range, I think. It's not tinny and it definitely sounds clear, but I just want to get a little more rumble out of it, so I might have to try something different there...perhaps push the cross up to 80Hz or something, I dunno.

But overall it's MUCH better, I hear a lot more music, a lot less boom and buzz. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[azeroth123 10+ year member]

Is it better to boost what you want more of or cut the other frequencies so it looks the same visually, only shifted down a few notches so the highest level is at 0dB boost?

!

In general the latter is the preferred method, for the same reason that you don't use bass boost, and loudness ect.