new guy with $1,000 needs help.

Did you really just tell him to go buy a farad cap??? Shame on you! Very bad info right there. The Zed old school amps are great thats for sure, but I would cross a big X through that last post and act like i never even read it.
Yes I did, he is going to run a completely different system than most on this forum and play different music than the bass heads around here that run DB drag. A farad cap to them is useless, but his system is what they were designed for so I'll give you something to cross a red X through. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 
Since when were caps designed for certain systems? All they do is balance voltage. With a proper electrical, you won't need to balance the voltage. You won't have the heavy bass to even NEED to balance it.

 
WRONG!! Farad Caps were first made for the BIG BASS HEAD's, you know the small systems never had lights dimming, but they do NOT work, just like Plutoman just said with a good Electrical you do not need it. Worst gimmick ever made. I feel sorry for the people whom have wasted money on caps.

o.l.t my friend you might want to go back and relearn what you think you might know about car audio.

 
Ksan, ....newb.... you are out of your mind saying something to me like that. Literally out of your mind and your buddy above you just tried to tell a guy that wasn't getting proper air exchange to his subs to fire them in a different direction.

When I say something, take it to the bank. Don't think I'm guessing about it. Don't bother referring back to something you read on the internet somewhere. Write it down and remember it.

I was one of the first 25 people to sit in the buick Grand National. I helped build Lanzar's white explorer. I put together transmission line box designs still being built today before CAD was being used to do it.

I'm only saying this once because I was there when the book was written, and I'm not arguing about it so this is the one post I'm making on this:

You are misusing the capacitor. It's hard to properly use something if you don't know how to use it. It has nothing to do with what voltage your system runs at, that is what your battery and alt are for. Capacitors are filters. Farad caps are useless to bass heads and were never intended to be used with any type of SPL/DB Drag style system. A capacitor does not supply constant voltage to the system, that is what the alternator and battery are for. Farad caps are made for people who play quick, sharp, punchy music such as rock for instance. The capacitor absorbs the initial voltage spike from the amp which is very quick. The capacitor charges back up and supplies the system on the next jolt. It is not made to supply constant voltage needed by the SPL vehicles. It is only for micro bursts which have nothing to do with how big your battery and alternator are. We are combating an initial bouncing spike.

Voltage spikes have a "bounce" to them. They go negative in voltage, then back to positive. The only way to absorb the negative is to add a capacitor. The capacitor absorbs the negative side of the spike. The flip side of the spike is a potential surge on the other side of the bounce. *If this were a digital circuit we'd use a de-bouncing switch to avoid false triggers.

The problem comes when trying to tell a bass head what a capacitor is for. It's an SQ thing, don't worry about it. SQ systems (and I mean real one's not "look I bought an EQT") need solid voltage and no line spikes which can induce noise into the system.

A good rock and roll setup like the OP wants, will do well with a farad or two in line. OP, Have fun and enjoy! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
O L T....Newb....I don't care where you were at and when. You still don't have a **** clue what your talking about.

I am not misusing a cap because I don't waste my time or money with that crap. And I have a great SQ System BTW but I also have a great electrical system that can run it.

If you were their when the book was wrote then you might want to buy a copy and READ it.

 
Ksan, ....newb.... you are out of your mind saying something to me like that. Literally out of your mind and your buddy above you just tried to tell a guy that wasn't getting proper air exchange to his subs to fire them in a different direction.
When I say something, take it to the bank. Don't think I'm guessing about it. Don't bother referring back to something you read on the internet somewhere. Write it down and remember it.

I was one of the first 25 people to sit in the buick Grand National. I helped build Lanzar's white explorer. I put together transmission line box designs still being built today before CAD was being used to do it.

I'm only saying this once because I was there when the book was written, and I'm not arguing about it so this is the one post I'm making on this:

You are misusing the capacitor. It's hard to properly use something if you don't know how to use it. It has nothing to do with what voltage your system runs at, that is what your battery and alt are for. Capacitors are filters. Farad caps are useless to bass heads and were never intended to be used with any type of SPL/DB Drag style system. A capacitor does not supply constant voltage to the system, that is what the alternator and battery are for. Farad caps are made for people who play quick, sharp, punchy music such as rock for instance. The capacitor absorbs the initial voltage spike from the amp which is very quick. The capacitor charges back up and supplies the system on the next jolt. It is not made to supply constant voltage needed by the SPL vehicles. It is only for micro bursts which have nothing to do with how big your battery and alternator are. We are combating an initial bouncing spike.

Voltage spikes have a "bounce" to them. They go negative in voltage, then back to positive. The only way to absorb the negative is to add a capacitor. The capacitor absorbs the negative side of the spike. The flip side of the spike is a potential surge on the other side of the bounce. *If this were a digital circuit we'd use a de-bouncing switch to avoid false triggers.

The problem comes when trying to tell a bass head what a capacitor is for. It's an SQ thing, don't worry about it. SQ systems (and I mean real one's not "look I bought an EQT") need solid voltage and no line spikes which can induce noise into the system.

A good rock and roll setup like the OP wants, will do well with a farad or two in line. OP, Have fun and enjoy! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Well, let's address this. With a good electrical, what is the cap needed for? The battery can provide those minute surges so long as it isn't beyond the capacity of the battery to provide. You aren't going to exceed those limits.

If the voltage is solid already (which it does not need a cap for), it won't have line spikes.

I'm an SQ guy. You aren't talking to a bass head. If I was a bass head, I wouldn't be running a single IB subwoofer, on 250 watts.

Now, you are misunderstanding what I've said. If you are going to argue a point, PLEASE make sure you understand it correctly. And please, PLEASE, don't start making assumptions about who you are talking to. Because you have an overinflated ego of what you know, that does not mean you are automatically superior, and can afford to skim over what some other guy's opinions are and count them wrong. Stop assuming what you learned from someone else twenty years ago is automatically correct. You're also assuming I'm guessing. I honestly don't care where you've been or where you've claimed to have been. I'm currently studying my degree in electrical engineering, myself.

In addition, the OP also pointing out that opening up the trunk into the cabin did absolutely nothing. Point in case? Obviously there's something wrong with your advice. It does not mean that there isn't enough air. That argument fell through, along with most of what validity you hold.

I never said a capacitor supplies voltage. It balances it to a steadier voltage. They act as filters, but not in a power line here - it can be used as a filter in certain occasions, and quite frequently is, but in the actual run of power, a capacitor is wasted when the battery can provide an equivalent voltage without any extreme stress. The caps take in the voltage, charge, and then release it as needed when overdrawn. However, this also produces a lower overall voltage. When you start running through rock beats, the power stored inside is released in the first one. Repeated beats afterwards are suffering now from the battery being forced to not only supply them but recharge the capacitor.

As the charging curve is exponential, it takes much longer to charge than release. It creates a drain on the battery. Now, for these micro bursts you say it is needed for, the battery can provide the power. It doesn't need the assistance of the capacitor, the amperage on the batteries is more than enough for any reasonable setup.

A cap can be used in certain occasions when you need to keep the voltage above a certain level in high powered applications, or if you need to filter out engine noise in other applications. A proper use is filtering out any extraneous noise in the signal wires.

However, this is not where it is needed. It may work, but that is a long way from needing it. It won't provide any noticeable benefit to a system in the application you've said.

As for the OP, the Phoenix Gold component set is going to be good for you. It's cheap, and much better than other sets at that price.

 
I appreciate all the replies so far. I'm learning quite about people's preferences here and value the opinions. So thank you. After spending much time comparing the PGs to other higher priced speakers, I have to say that 90% of the owners are very impressed with them. Many who have been seriously into car audio for some time. However, as mentioned, the tweeters may not be the best out there but considering the price and that I'm relatively new to car audio (beyond going to the local wal-mart and picking some speakers out there) I doubt I will notice what the tweets are missing. Also, compared to my stock speakers I've always had, I'm sure the difference will be night and day.

Now, since I don't always have the stereo at full tilt, the front speakers are pointed roughly at my shins, and I do like the sound of rear fill; I will be purchasing 2 sets. For the price of these, I think it would still be a good investment and not too much of a waste.

This brings me to my next two questions:

Given the placement of the front door speakers (low on the front side of the doors pointing directly at my shins) Would the best placement for the PGs be back in the doors and have the tweets mounted up higher by the pillar or dash? OR relocate them to kick panels on the floor pointing back up towards the driver and passenger?

Next, since the PGs are rated at a rms of 60 watts @ 4 Ohm and I will be running two sets, it should look something like this?

rms 60*2 =120 peak @ 4 Ohm

so 120*4=480 peak @ 4 Ohm

So the amp for the front stage should have a RMS Continuous Power rating of at least 480 watts across 4 channels?

I'm interested in how to calculate for an amp without coming up too short on my power needs or on the other side getting one too powerful and blowing the speakers. As you can tell math is not my strong point //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Thanks again

 
You will be VERY happy with those PG comps, great for the price. You should always mount the tweeters as close to the mid woofer as you can to help with the imaging. So with what you have mentioned I would go kick panels over the pillar and low door mount idea to keep them close. I am mot a big fan of front and read comps because it takes away from the staging but if you like it and have your reasons thats fine.

Are you going to get a 4-channel amp or a 2-channel amp? If it is a 2-channel amp two sets of those hooked to it will make it into a 2Ohm load. Get back to us on the channels and we can talk more.

EDIT........Here is a great little 4-channel (cheap) amp you could push those with. At 129.95 hard to beat it new

RMS Power Rating:

4 ohms: 125 watts x 4 chan.

2 ohms: 250 watts x 4 chan.

Bridged, 4 ohms: 500 watts x 2 chan.

http://www.amazon.com/MB-Quart-DSC4125-4-Channel-Amplifier/dp/B001JT17TO/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&m=ANZ5B8ZZ261JD&s=generic&qid=1251559838&sr=1-12

 
Well after thinking about it and reading a few posts. I decided NOT to pick up 2 sets of the PGs and just use HU power on some aftermarket 6x9s i have for the rear fill.

As for the the Amp, IF I am understanding this correctly, for the components you need (or better off getting) a 4 channel amp so you can control the power to the mids and tweeters separately. Is this correct?

 
Only if your going active.

You could run the mid woofer to one channel of the amp without the in-line crossover and use the amp to set it. I have heard people getting better sound from the PG RSD this way. Then use the in-line crossover on just the tweeters. I would not push this set of twets to hard, they are know to blow. I would just use the crossover that came with the comps myself....for now. if your not happy then try something else like I said above.

Remember though.Sub-woofers are generally crossed at 100 Hz and below.

Woofers are generally crossed between 100 - 500 Hz.

Mid ranges are crossed between 300 - 500 Hz and 3500 - 8000 Hz.

Tweeters are crossed at 5000 Hz and above

The crossover point selection is more of an art than a science but this will give you a great start to tinker with.

 
Thanks for the link to the amp. I see a lot of people here push their PGs with 150w. So, 125w per side @ 4 Ohm should do nicely and leave a bit of overhead if i needed it. Also, thanks for explaining the crossover ranges and suggestion about using the crossover on just the tweets and setting the mids using the amp. This will be a great starting point when i get started dialing everything in.

 
Ok, so far everything is looking like this:

HU:

Clarion DXZ785USB $169 LINK

Front Stage:

Speakers - Phoenix Gold 6.5" $79.99 LINK

Amp - MB Quart Discus 500 Watt A/B Class 4-Channel $129.95 LINK

Approximate front stage cost: $378.94 before shipping

So far, I think this is looking pretty good and will yield some nice results. Unless there are some major objections to this list, I think we can move onto the sub stage.

 
A few more questions. Would it benefit me greatly to also pick up say a 10 band EQ with bass output? If so, are there any decent ones out there that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg. Also, when you run an external eq, this is considered going "active" correct?

Thanks

EDIT: I realized that going active means you need an external processor to control the crossovers and filters. Search button ftw.

 
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