I know, but After that last whiney post by him I just felt like posting those alot, and it hadn't gone away when you posted....
Decipha
10+ year member
www.EFI Dyno Tuning.com
my .357 sig is directional... anybody starts fukin wit my sound and they may have an
imaging problem, also a seeing and breathing problem.
imaging problem, also a seeing and breathing problem.
audioholic
5,000+ posts
not a moderator
You would be dense enough to boil my comments down to something like that. Not surprising at all. Well, its not like I expected you to acually learn anything. But its funny you just wont let the thread die either. *shrug*
Let us know when you've decided if midbass 'becomes stereo' at 200hz, or at 60-70hz, once you'ce actually decided that is. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif
STOP WHINING!!!!
audioholic
5,000+ posts
not a moderator
If you do not like the contents of this thread, stop clicking on it.
no seperation happens on two occations both have no axis when is would that be? its not that hard no sound or when the projected image is omni fin direction due to frequency or do you believe 200 hz coming from a 12 is the same as a 6 or an 8?(hehe if this were true then all of your mids and highs would be really easy to pick out and wouldnt sound full all the way around in a room or car because the only otherway to correct this is by time and thats only good for ONE location) its alll right there i like it how when the tables get f'in flipped from me getting "OWNED" to this. imaging is a percieved soundstage if what you are saying is true beaming effects mean nothing a speakers dispersion means nothing. a speakers dispersion is what we hear the shape of that dispersion at a givin frequency will give us the "location" believe it or not (thats why i broke it down for you into the creek ocean analogy) yes speakers of the same size and different design can "disperse" differently giving it slightly better off axis response but thats controled by its response (gets warmer slightly louder in a lower frequency alot of times they build crossovers and eq curcuits into the xover to do this or its simple PHASE shifts built into the crossover point) this is still all controled by the speakers dispersion as to location if it disperses nothing we in turn hear nothing. the shape of which it disperses indeed gives away its location. thats why smaller speakers take advantage of the beaming effect over their larger counter parts. now you can say or argue the size of the listening area matters (it does) but then again you have to remember a car/truck/suv are only SO big to begin with. the mono(summed left and right) 8 in this situation would be wider at this frequency than the 12 you were talking about. i also said to have the 6.5.s come in on the (dipping into the frequencies the mono midbass would be playing) so at higher more directional frequencies the stereo pair PULLS the signal wider than what the 8 is putting out. my 5 1/4's sound ALOT bigger than the 3 way set i had in my truck due to the beaming effect (its not louder its bigger) it makes a big difference in how things are picked out. when you go with larger speakers in general you are leaning to giving away a speakers location for (imo extreme others might not think so) tonality. that is the problem if you dig farther into the subject you will see people complain about loosing "openess" and giving up sonically the speakers locations (we hear where its coming from) by not taking into consideration of what beaming does. in my set up i gained about 10 inches at least in stage heighth with a "uniform sound" why? its all directivity the 5.25 is more omni directional at low frequencies (remember this is what keeps it big as it does get smaller the less omni directional it becomes(aka higher frequencies) with absolute lining between the tweeter/mid it creates a funnel on eitherside of my vehicle larger than the listening feild. its much bigger sounding than the 6.5-4-tweet set up i had before..does it get as loud? no. the only problem i see that you could have in understanding this is putting it together across all frequencies that its playing but thats where placement starts playing a more important roll with LESS directional frequencies.
as to you "let us know when mid bass becomes directional" question it was answered a long time ago it DEPENDS ON WHAT ITS COMING FROM. lowest frequency that i have read that it is becoming directional is 160 hz*. starting to get directional mind you the speaker is playing at higher frequencies too so instead of being totally round its dispersion its becoming pear shapped, when its absolute directional the speaker wont project the higher frequency far from around its radious, thus its easily picked out. some people that say 100 and 70 the reason behind that is simple resonance of the environment in one of 3 situations. 1 it creates a standing wave (pretty hard to do in a car intereior its not a box). 2 vibration around the speaker at its location. 3 you are right by 1 of the speakers and the other is way on the otherside of the listening environment thus u feel one more than the other (example and 8 mounted in the door by your left leg -lets say 6 to 8" from it lol and 3 and a half feet away from the other in the other door- that should be obvious. thing that is or should be obvious by now though that the speaker size does matter lol. whats omni directional for a sub makes it "mono able" not until we get up to a few hundred hz for other speakers. beaming effect is also why people want to take small tweeters and try to cross them over at 1200 hz or so. it would lose alot of its directionalness and sound more open and real. in a dead environment med volume i know i cant directly pick up left or right in musical passages until at least 200hz but lets say it was a 12 or bigger i would say it would be directional listen to a simple 2 6.5 way speaker set that is reasonably flat down to 30 hz you would get a different answer. also mind you when i said it starts getting "pear shaped" it also depends where you are in that pear shape to start depicting where its at.
i forgot to answer the * thing. just like its said people hear from 20-20k in general thats true but the majority probably cant some people hear at 23 hz to 18k we all hear differently
jlaine
10+ year member
Vaporware
I have yet to meet anyone deaf enough to not be able to localize a 80hz tone, let alone a 200hz one.
You couldn't be further from reality audiolife.
You couldn't be further from reality audiolife.
so what you are saying is reguardless where you put a speaker in a sound system if it plays higher than 80hz reguardless its going to be pointed out to its location? if this were the case you couldnt escape the confines of the car (sound bigger) the firebird i had on my imaging scores had placements outside the car as far as imaging (subs were 15's crossed over at 90 hz, 8's in kicks 90-1k hz horns 1k on up) subs never sounded "rear localized" and yes they were on drum tracks marked on sheet x out front and to the side of side view mirror, second beat level with driver side a pilar middle of the hood, third beat middle of hood right in front of the driver, 4th beat smack dab in the middle of the hood, 5th beat middle of the hood in front of the passenger, 6th beat middle hood in front of passengerside a plillar 7th beat outside infront of side view mirror. relievance you might ask? that track has mid bass on up. if its so localized why is it 4 to 6 feet feet away (percieved) than where the actual drivers are located? my truck stage heighth well above the dash (5.25 basically on the floor) minium 27" difference in heighth depth makes it to the first 6 inches of the hood at least and in width on that track makes it past the a pillars. you are talking about being able to "pin point" a location if it were at any point "pin pointable" with the rest of the system the perception of the sound being pushed back and out WOULDNT exist. im not even using time delay or tuned yet (sony dsc program doesnt like xp so i am waiting on my win 98 lap top to arrive) the tracks "smack" and dont get sucked down at all. rta on the bird was always a 37 the truck as it sits no worse than a 31 (sub is heavy). 1 dont "flip switches" to turn off any of my speakers to do this. i know people do that to score better on rta hell the perfect 40 was achieved with 2 5.25's (passenger side) 1 front tweeter passenger side and 1 oz tweeter on the bottom of the hatch lid lol. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif
jlaine
10+ year member
Vaporware
Until such a level that the entire vehicle is a rattle trap.
I'd argue with you point to point, but it's difficult for me to read your posts - so I stuck to the first one.
if the system sounds like a CAR with it being EASY to pick where the speakers are then its not set up very well at all. basically if you can pin point out the speakers you either set it up with too large of speakers set up in poor locations or its VERY ill tuned with poor locations. thats why i was asking you about the 3 way i had no matter where i put everything it sounded very small and cluttered (if you remember that far back) ps i added to the post up there as well.
audioholic
5,000+ posts
not a moderator
You've been saying all along that location on the midbass doesn't matter (or even that its mono) because in your opinion the human ear cannot discern location. (started when I said a mono midbass in the center of the car was a bad idea) But now you are saying that if you can pinpoint the location, its due to poor speaker placement. Im confused, which is your true arguement at this point? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif
lol if you can pin point it(mid bass) via a door hell Rob M over at car sound said the same thing . with it being in the door so close to your leg its localized aka easily pointed out. he was simply saying if you care about imaging you dont do that. also same thing can be said about a sub woofer in your door you feel it its right there you make it localized.put it deep into the kick its a totally different animal. thats why back in the day people like jerry ziegler used to unhook his door midbasses so it didnt kill his sound stage. now people dsp it (he could have too he was all odr at the time) but he couldnt get it "right". i know this is true because the convos we had were in person at the shows. we talked probably for 5 hours total and found out he graduated with my cousin from new haven high school and worked for classic like i did (when he was just out of high school) and left for the same reason i did lol. mute point just saying that "story" isnt hearsay it was first hand. i would also have to say he qualifies as an expert.
i gotta get ready for work so ill summerize what im getting back from everyone disagreeing with me. anything above 80 hz is localized (my definition of localized is you hear it you know exactly where it is) if this were true then there is no way to extend the appeared sound to sound larger than the car (i know this to be totally untrue also with horns would make it V from wide to narrow from top to bottom if set up improperly yes. if set up right no. if you played the mid bass by itself or for the most part the subs too you would be able to pin point them out more than likely but this isnt about "being alone". if that was assumed thats was never intended as too me who would want a system that consists of 1 mid bass? from the GO in this particular argueement there were other speakers involved here. any way ill be back in the morning feel free too add up against or for ... till tomarrow //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
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