My New Midbass Idea!

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

You look to be in a better mood today Punk. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[UndercoverPunk 5,000+ posts]

You look to be in a better mood today Punk. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

I don't usually hold grudges..//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Me either. Kiss me.

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

if my ears are that shot then why was my average scores on soundstage, ambience and imaging between 90-100 points out of 115 possible? the judges must be just as deaf as me? lol jerry ziegler, larry chijner they were a bunch of def guys. i say make the point out the test tone game more fun spin around a few times then try to find it lmao. you already know there is a speaker there so whats the point? if i put 16 speakers in a sealed chambered cube thats 24"x24" in size. at random playing one speaker you can positivly pick it out each time? i would find it easier to find a sound that was fired at me within a few inches (you could feel the waves pretty easy from one side and not the other even with time alignment)

If you think I'm dumb enough to do a localization test with a human knowing where the driver is - you know less about audio than I figured from the first place.

Once you start coming back with something useful - or some real data, we'll continue this talk.

But I'm personally tired of reading your posts that have nothing useful to say because 1) I can barely read them, and 2) a deaf monkey can do exactly what has been said in the first place. You keep adding things that mean nothing... Like time alignment? What? Who cares? What does that have to do with anything? How is anyone supposed to follow your discussion?

Your SQ scores have nothing to do with this topic. I've scored in the upper 95% in SQ with my car in USAC Advanced Pro - and I don't bring it up because it means..... Nothing. It's not relevant to this discussion... SQ has nothing to do with this conversation - at all.

 

[Classick96 10+ year member]

LoL Wow..i learned alot in this thread...and actually read it all..

Wow..

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

If you think I'm dumb enough to do a localization test with a human knowing where the driver is - you know less about audio than I figured from the first place.
Once you start coming back with something useful - or some real data, we'll continue this talk.

But I'm personally tired of reading your posts that have nothing useful to say because 1) I can barely read them, and 2) a deaf monkey can do exactly what has been said in the first place. You keep adding things that mean nothing... Like time alignment? What? Who cares? What does that have to do with anything? How is anyone supposed to follow your discussion?

Your wannabe SQ scores have nothing to do with this topic. I've scored in the upper 95% in SQ with my car in USAC Advanced Pro - and I don't bring it up because it means..... Nothing. It's not relevant to this discussion... SQ has nothing to do with this conversation - at all.

if you do a 70 hz test tone test (or any test) you as the tester are going to know where the speaker is. imaging and stageing scores are talking about where the speakers create a soundstage (aka where the sound appears) you can flip speaker phases,

if you have a really big car and wish to do a center channel using 3 speakers and run it an a mixxed stereo mono config, to time delay/crossover points/volume of other speakers.... none of it is magic. i simply asked you "how localized it is to you?" you said you could point right at it and im deaf because i gave it an area. then i said the higher the frequency with the same speaker the easier it was to exactly point out which is true because eventually you would be able to point right through the speaker. worst case i see the user having with this set up (his 2 way set is capable and giving a nice mid bass response and will be in a much better location than a door) the worst that 8 would do when properly tuned is add a smidge of mid bass bring the sub seemingly more up front. which imo is better than giving away totally the mid bass location by having it fire into your leg and another fireing into the passengers leg. i also gave some suggestion that in the center it would need pulled out by the 6.5's so yes i took into consideration that it would be some what localized to its location without tuning it.

josh if you are frustrated with me , so be it im not with you

im sorry if you are. from an old convo we had maybe 2 years ago it seemed you didnt like others criticing your car or the politics behind it (you were frustrated about something with comps). in this situation it boils down to either using the 8, get a set of dedicated mid basses in the door or just sticking with the 2 way set in the kicks. either location of the added mid bass/ basses is just asking to pick your poison as it effects the sound stage.

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

if you do a 70 hz test tone test (or any test) you as the tester are going to know where the speaker is. imaging and stageing scores are talking about where the speakers create a soundstage (aka where the sound appears) you can flip speaker phases,if you have a really big car and wish to do a center channel using 3 speakers and run it an a mixxed stereo mono config, to time delay/crossover points/volume of other speakers.... none of it is magic. i simply asked you "how localized it is to you?" you said you could point right at it and im deaf because i gave it an area. then i said the higher the frequency with the same speaker the easier it was to exactly point out which is true because eventually you would be able to point right through the speaker. worst case i see the user having with this set up (his 2 way set is capable and giving a nice mid bass response and will be in a much better location than a door) the worst that 8 would do when properly tuned is add a smidge of mid bass bring the sub seemingly more up front. which imo is better than giving away totally the mid bass location by having it fire into your leg and another fireing into the passengers leg. i also gave some suggestion that in the center it would need pulled out by the 6.5's so yes i took into consideration that it would be some what localized to its location without tuning it.

josh if you are frustrated with me , so be it im not with you

im sorry if you are. from an old convo we had maybe 2 years ago it seemed you didnt like others criticing your car or the politics behind it (you were frustrated about something with comps). in this situation it boils down to either using the 8, get a set of dedicated mid basses in the door or just sticking with the 2 way set in the kicks. either location of the added mid bass/ basses is just asking to pick your poison as it effects the sound stage.

Soundstage? Imaging? SQ? Tonality? Phasing? Time alignment?

We're talking about the ability to localize a midbass driver... We're not talking about running a 12khz sine wave through a driver that doesn't need it. (not to mention if I put a 12khz sine wave through a midbass driver all I would have to do is rotate it 50 degrees and you'd have to wonder where it is at since the beaming would be insanely severe.

The conversation started, always has been, and is still revolving around - can you localize a midbass.

I can. I can grab a stranger off the street and he can. Because of that, does it make sense to put something like that in mono mode in the middle of your floor?

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif middle of the floor with other speakers (probably more so than i first suggested in turns of a crossover point) helping it get wide to me would be better than having it hump my leg. ( laughing about humping my leg not at your idea either). in all honesty im not saying this to be dumb or cause a fight. every car i have listened to with horns or kicks suffered from adding speakers to a door (mid bass or not and using time delay or not) it cuts down on the width (if you use it like you would for daily) and becomes neutered when you set it up so it doesnt cut off the soundstage the a pillar. if i feel it on me at moderate volume it cuts it down worse. i delt with this first hand with my avi's in my tempo (horns underdash, 5 1/4 in door) i wasnt the only person to feel that way about it so i was going to get 3 way active x over and turn the under dash pocket into a mid bass area myself . i couldnt do kicks because the horns and clutch were in the way. this little project never happened due to some lady going around a curve found it more important to finding her map than staying on her side of the road at 60 mph so that little under dash mid bass thing that was suggested to me by jerry ziegler and another judge (at a show in warsaw) never happened. the tempo was totaled i bought the firebird took it to sbn. talked to jerry a bit while he was tuning his crx. over the winter he added mid basses to his doors. it indeed cut off his sound stage. how i mean by cutting it down it seemed to cause a wrap around the listeners (passenger and driver) if it wraps around you in the corners it is no longer as wide nor as far out in front of you as it should be. he was all odr at the time and i know he isnt a dumb *** in respects to crossover points much less anything else so his solution to it was to unhook them. i dont know how lax sound staging has become as i havent competed since 98 which i know means nothing but if the door speakers cut off the staging like that why do it? that part wouldnt change. when i was taught about this stuff one general rule that was followed was if you go into the door put everything there (except maybe a tweeter in the a pillar) if you do not go into the doors then get crazy.(by crazy i mean floor boards, kick panels ,wheel wells...) the only car i ever heard that didnt wrap around like im suggesting that i heard was from a local that did kicks with door speakers built out his door then dug into that so deep he had to use dddrive speakers (really small magnets) and even then the only thing he would turn on if he wanted his best sound stage were the tweets in the door (from either side front seat those looked to be well behind the kick lol.) to end this spat im not directing this at a person or persons as to say they dont know anything as there is more than 1 way to skin a cat (i have always said this). if a door location was that good why would people literially spend 10's of thousands of dollars and spend countless hours keeping speakers out of them? if you think thats dumb to do then color me that type of dumby //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

localized by feel is easier to do than by hearing , 2 speakers offset by that much distance difference without processing would lead to that much worse staging and even if you did the processing you could still feel it side biased to your seating position on your leg.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

... if the door speakers cut off the staging like that why do it?

How can this be possible if what you say is true, that midbass is "omnidirectional" therefore cannot be localized. Yet you blame the midbass location for narrowing the soundtsage. Both situations cannot coexist.
I find it amusing you are now defending the use of a mono midbass driver in your center floor while telling us how bad stereo midbass in the doors sounds. You're making tons of sense now. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

How can this be possible if what you say is true, that midbass is "omnidirectional" therefore cannot be localized. Yet you blame the midbass location for narrowing the soundtsage. Both situations cannot coexist.
I find it amusing you are now defending the use of a mono midbass driver in your center floor while telling us how bad stereo midbass in the doors sounds. You're making tons of sense now. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

through feel more so than "hearing" truth be told though also i dont use a single test tone i use several at once and on more than 1 speaker if i use any at all. i use whole material with a known stage 9 out of ten times. i only have 1 disc that does tones (thats for subs mostly) then it has 3 tones playing at once only time i EVER used that was to check on cross over points not to see how it staged (and i had that made for me had 3 tracks 1 had 90-900-1k, 40-. which would be laughable. never once did i mean distance as right on you and in my arguement i dont have to argue for 2 speakers at different locations just the mid bass being centered. also in my whole arguement im considering the other speakers playing not just 1 mid bass one or a pair. only lame point to my arguement i see is the cross over point of the 6.5's (how low they go) but thats easy to fix by turning a dial. all stereo sound basically is is a 90 degree phase shift to a mono sound that becomes more apparent with higher frequency. he will already have a pair of speakers down there to pull it out unless he sets it up where the 8 is over bearing and if he did that to a door set it would do the samething the mono one would do but in my opinion worse because it would take a very specific note to center and the only thing needed to locate the midbass in the door is a little volume.... of course he could always strap a bass shaker on his right leg then have the passenger put the other on there right leg lol although im sure some real wigged out people have tried this in consoles and such i know several who used them when they played there front stage only to make it "sound" like it had a sub lol oh yes i also used a test tone to figure out when my kick panel resonated too lol

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

How can this be possible if what you say is true, that midbass is "omnidirectional" therefore cannot be localized. Yet you blame the midbass location for narrowing the soundtsage. Both situations cannot coexist.
I find it amusing you are now defending the use of a mono midbass driver in your center floor while telling us how bad stereo midbass in the doors sounds. You're making tons of sense now. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

Surprised you got that much out of it... I read the first 3 lines then just can't continue because there is no grammatical structure involved. Something in my head just doesn't allow me to process much when it isn't following some form of semi-proper written language. I try to struggle through it but I don't know what the deal is - just can't follow it...

I personally really don't care what he has to say anymore - we tried to discuss localization with him and he's talking door panels now? It's like me saying to someone "the sun sure is fine out today" and getting the response of "the grass sure is quiet."

On a side note though - this made me want to scream...

all stereo sound basically is is a 90 degree phase shift to a mono sound that becomes more apparent with higher frequency.

Uh... A stereo recording is a stereo recording. How you manage to come up with this stuff is beyond me... And shockingly enough, it still has nothing to do with what we were trying to talk about in the first place.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Surprised you got that much out of it... I read the first 3 lines then just can't continue because there is no grammatical structure involved. Something in my head just doesn't allow me to process much when it isn't following some form of semi-proper written language. I try to struggle through it but I don't know what the deal is - just can't follow it...
I personally really don't care what he has to say anymore - we tried to discuss localization with him and he's talking door panels now? It's like me saying to someone "the sun sure is fine out today" and getting the response of "the grass sure is quiet."

On a side note though - this made me want to scream...

Uh... A stereo recording is a stereo recording. How you manage to come up with this stuff is beyond me... And shockingly enough, it still has nothing to do with what we were trying to talk about in the first place.

localize it with your ear josh is different than it shaking your leg or are you saying that you hear touch? put a bass shaker on your back or set one under your seat tell me it doesnt do anything for it.(under you should bring the bass more up front. if behind you well it would still sound or seem behind you . for those who dont know what a shaker is they shake to the music being played is why they work that way much like feeling a speaker alot like you would in the car and neither of you guys are even considering the closeness of the speaker that you are listening to. noone i have ever seen uses a test tone to tune a car for sq and for the 4th time you said you dont care yet you respond anyway. you say you can pin point to a degree but then say you can pick sides what side is the middle in? then if i use your own arguement against you if its so EASY to pick out why would you put anything in a door to begin with unless the car was a mclaren? ill ask another question as well are there that many tones in the 60-120 range that would center the 8 if the 6.5's were crossed over lower to say 90-100 hz that it would destroy it? i personally dont think so you would have to really have the 8 very far out of linear volume (where it sounds balanced at all volumes) with reguards to everything else to "stand out",or have like a 72 db per octive cross over slope. to me this is like argueing over a center channel that reguardless works if its set right, even though i wouldnt run 1 by choice.

i never think to say to someone "hey nice system, but i bet it sounds like *** with test tones"

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

i never think to say to someone "hey nice system, but i bet it sounds like *** with test tones"

So we're talking about sound quality via test tones now? I thought we were talking about localizing midbass...? jlaine is right, you try to take the conversation every direction but the right one.

neither of you guys are even considering the closeness of the speaker that you are listening to.

Wow, you cannot even follow your own logic, at all. Its been your contention all along that midbass placement does not matter (because its omnidirectional) yet here you are telling us we aren't considering the location of the speaker in these tests. Do you even know what your stance is in this debate anymore? I know I sure dont, beyond simply being an antagonist.
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Thanks for your input jlaine, your comments have been quite humorous. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

So we're talking about sound quality via test tones now? I thought we were talking about localizing midbass...? jlaine is right, you try to take the conversation every direction but the right one.
Wow, you cannot even follow your own logic, at all. Its been your contention all along that midbass placement does not matter (because its omnidirectional) yet here you are telling us we aren't considering the location of the speaker in these tests. Do you even know what your stance is in this debate anymore? I know I sure dont, beyond simply being an antagonist.

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Thanks for your input jlaine, your comments have been quite humorous. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif It's been fun... Can't get into a logical debate when the debate guidelines can't stay focused on a topic though. Was worth a shot!