My New Midbass Idea!

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

lmao yuh huh read the graphs and dont pull quotes out that you dont understand.

"guys------aiming midbass speakers is just about a totally useless effort since the radiated wavelenghts are long compared to the speaker size------what matters a lot is the placement of the speaker in relation to the other speakers in the system and the relationship to the listerers ears................RC""

what he is stating there is NON DIRECTIONAL (aiming generally thats a directional thing aim means to point ...to point in the direction of ..in this case useless) its a time issue nothing more nothing less. in this instance he is talking about could be said about trying to get "up front bass.

"I ran the 12 in the middle of my dash up to 160 Hz, in mono, in the center of the car, and it seemed to do OK, but definetely dragged the images to the center".

"seemed ok but"..... change the output level or go to a smaller driver things would change drastically. if mid bass was so "directional" people wouldnt put them in doors now would they? i personally dont believe in a 4 way set up but they can work as long as eveything else is up to par and you can control it. door locations **** and in your arguement why didnt he say left or right midbass was lacking? scott has been doing this along time (he was a competitor back when i was) so like unless he was doing this back in 93 he already knew the directivity of midbass and probably knew in 93 at that lol. anything you set up if it has more output than it should you can sorta tell where its coming from. personally i think its more from vibrations than sound from the speaker. if you google this topic you will see for yourself how it works if not so be it......

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

*sigh* Its funny you completely skew the truth, even as you are telling me Im the one who doesn't understand. Lets take your BS one step at a time, shall we?

Your trying to explain away RC's quote is preposterous. Read it again, verrrrry slowly. What does he say? He says placement of the speakers in relation to the other speakers and to the listener's ears is very important. Now, if what you say is true, that midbass seperation is indistinguisable below 200hz (wait is that right, Ive forgotten what your latest position is on that... it keeps changing), why do you suppose RC would say placement of the midbass driver was so important (particularly to the 'listeners ears')? Uhm, maybe because he's saying the human ear can detect midbass sound sources? I guess that had never occurred to you. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif

The next part is even funnier:

"I ran the 12 in the middle of my dash up to 160 Hz, in mono, in the center of the car, and it seemed to do OK, but definetely dragged the images to the center".

From that you only got "seemed to do ok, but". You are a piece of work, he CLEARLY states it pulled his imaging to the center (exactly what's been said would happen running a center mono midbass driver(s)), yet the only part of the quote you want to address was "seemed to do ok, but". Like I said, if you don't see the relevance of his quote, you simply don't want to.

change the output level or go to a smaller driver things would change drastically.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. You are taking a quote from an expert that clearly states running his center mono midbass dragged his imaging to the center, and speculating that the problem was in fact the speaker size (I guess Scott Buwalda doesn't know as much about sizing speakers for his own system as the great audiolife either?) and further speculating what would happen if the speaker size ever changed. The speaker size was irrelevant to Scott's point, as he was talking about mono midbass, yet you want to ignore than and disect his 'problem' better than him. Im curious, what color is the sky in your world?

if mid bass was so "directional" people wouldnt put them in doors now would they?

So the great expert audiolife doesn't understand the diffference between on-axis versus off-axis aiming (called driver dispersion), and distinguishing between a mono and stereo signal (point sourcing)? You talk big and try to act like Im the one not understanding, yet you aren't even getting basic concepts like that. Let me clue you in, here's another quote:
"Dispersion depends mostly on driver diameter and frequency. With a 8", you will get 180 degrees of dispersion at 200Hz and lower without a doubt."

This means you can mount a midbass driver in your door and not worry about AIMING it at you (for on-axis response), but this does NOT mean you cannot/will not distinguish a mono signal eminating from the center (rather than from the sides). I would think an expert such as yourself would not have made such a fundamental error in logic. Maybe you really don't know as much as you think. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

why didnt he say left or right midbass was lacking?

Uhm, he said: "definetely dragged the images to the center". Feel free to post a 3 paragraph explaination trying to convince us he isn't referring to a lack of left and right midbass when he referred to his MIDBASS driver as pulling the image toward the CENTER. Go ahead and try, it would be a humorous read. Watching you try to squirm out of one simple incorrect statement early in this thread has become amusing.
Im not trying to be mean here, but really, you're getting on my nerves now. You made the comment "mid bass doesnt start going stereo until about 200 hz" (copied and pasted DIRECTLY from your own post) which is blatantly false. Since then you've 1) stated something completely differently.... "starts but doesnt become for over an octive" (when juju said it starts at 60-70hz.... its 'octave' btw) which is absolutely different than your original comment that it doesnt start till 200hz, yet you act like that's been your stance all along, 2) used logic that's flawed at the very fundamentals, and 3) implied Im just not smart enough to comprehend your flawed logic. Like I said, you're a piece of work. All this just because you cant admit you were simply wrong.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

umm ok since you are just being an *** there is a direct physics equation for what you are talking about and YES it pertains to the size of the driver as well. its called directivity. its sorta funny listening to people try to hammer people when they dont know shit lol.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

read the first link and actually learn something please? do it for yourself if nothing else lol

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

umm ok since you are just being an *** there is a direct physics equation for what you are talking about and YES it pertains to the size of the driver as well. its called directivity. its sorta funny listening to people try to hammer people when they dont know shit lol.

What is it you think I do not know? I am the one who pointed it out to you. You are the one mistaking the terms, not me.

And its funny you say Im the one who's just being an ***, when I tried to agree to disagree on this like 2 pages ago. I wanted us to both be able to bow out of this gracefully, but you only took it as another opportunity to sling mud at me ("i can agree you dont understand")... whatever. Ive supplied quotes from people anyone would consider an 'expert', you've told us how you've won sooo many trophies so I (and juju and everyone else) am wrong, and tried to only look at ridiculously small parts of a quote like "seemed to do ok, but". And you conveniently ignore my point about you -blatantly- changing your story within this very thread. You need to start looking in the mirror more, you are the one acting like an ***.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

read the first link and actually learn something please? do it for yourself if nothing else lol

Yes I know I know, you still think you're talking waaaaay above my head. lol //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif
Ive read it genius.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

didnt change any story if you would read the link. but then again you are the physics expert. just add more power to it itll go lowwer

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

what did it say? lol

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Yes I know I know, you still think you're talking waaaaay above my head. lol //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif
Ive read it genius.

i must be if you are still trying to prove shit lol

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

You want me to argue your side now? Nice try. That link does not support your theory, sorry.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

lol sure it dont

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

read far enough down?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

i must be if you are still trying to prove shit lol

Have you even stated what it is you are trying to prove? juju asked why you are arguing back on page one, and Im still not sure. Where in that link does it state midbass does not start "going stereo until about 200hz"? All this other crap is you trying to hide the real issue, that initial statement and the one thing I commented on originally, because you know its wrong. And I know you know its wrong, because YOU have stated exactly the opposite since then (starts at 60-70hz... agreeing with juju). You are full of it up to your ears, and as I said before your goal here is to save face, rather than find the truth. And Im simply done with you.
Goodnight.

edit: I'll reply ONLY if you show where in the link it states midbass does not "become stereo" until 200hz. I will NOT reply to any of your other BS.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

The animation at right shows actual directivity data measured for a 4-inch boxed loudspeaker.[1] At low frequencies (250 Hz) the speaker radiates sound equally well in all directions. At higher frequencies (10 kHz) the speaker radiates all of its sound in front - the sound level behind the speaker is almost 25 dB lower than the level in front, indicating that much more sound energy is being radiated directly in front and very little behind.

^^^ thats quoted from the page you can take it above 250 hz well above on a 4" on the 8" it will be less than 250 "perfect scenario" but in a car it doesnt have to do the perfect scenario the 8 should be well able to do 200 in the listening feild of the car. the equation is right there.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

The animation at right shows actual directivity data measured for a 4-inch boxed loudspeaker.[1] At low frequencies (250 Hz) the speaker radiates sound equally well in all directions. At higher frequencies (10 kHz) the speaker radiates all of its sound in front - the sound level behind the speaker is almost 25 dB lower than the level in front, indicating that much more sound energy is being radiated directly in front and very little behind.
^^^ thats quoted from the page you can take it above 250 hz well above on a 4" on the 8" it will be less than 250 "perfect scenario" but in a car it doesnt have to do the perfect scenario the 8 should be well able to do 200 in the listening feild of the car. the equation is right there.

The problem is that's talking about sound dispersion from the speaker, the entire page is (which is why it does not support your theory). Again, you are confusing sound dispersion with sound sourcing. The 4" speaker they are referring to on that page would not need to be aimed at the listener at the freq in question (250hz), but that does not mean stereo seperation will not be evident. Go listen to a rock and roll cd, they love running their drums from side to side (usually done via sound processing in the recording phase) and yes it dips well above and below 250hz. I so happen to have an RTA built in to my computer desk, its easy to test these things. I just played track 4 off of Metallica's "And Justice for ALL", the song was "One". At the very beginning a helicopter shifts from the left channel to the right, quite obviously flying 'across' the sound stage. And my handy dandy RTA here confirmed the highest output frequencies were wll below 200hz. But according to you, Im hearing things, or my RTA is way off. And RC is way off, and Scott Buwalda, etc etc etc.