Mix shallow mount subs with normal?

[mcsoul 10+ year member]

So if sound quality isn't the biggest buying point here, and you'd like the bass in a shallow mounting spot, there really isn't a big argument against it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Wait a minute, he's talking about running 4 subs right? 2 shallow, 2 not; all RF P3.

 

[Immacomputer 10+ year member]

Those subs are VERY different. Just because they're both P3s doesn't mean that they are the same sub as they're no where near similar to each other. One has an Fs of 27hz and a Qts of .48 while the other has an Fs of 43hz and a Qts of .7... yea...

 

[AllDayMJ 10+ year member]

it will totally maybe sounds possibly decent.

 

[shaneb 10+ year member]

you can get a lot of subs cheap //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I say see what frequ range they will take and put those shallow mounts in your doors and run 3 way active making them midbass

 

[Plutoman 10+ year member]

you can get a lot of subs cheap //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gifI say see what frequ range they will take and put those shallow mounts in your doors and run 3 way active making them midbass

That's almost what it'd be. They'll be running on separate amps, so the subs can be tuned separately - you can filter each to the correct frequencies. If he was running these on one amp, then I would say hell no.

Otherwise, it's not any different than a heavier pair of midbasses added into the car. Not much different than running two separate sets of components in a car.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

So if sound quality isn't the biggest buying point here, and you'd like the bass in a shallow mounting spot, there really isn't a big argument against it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

There is a difference between "my system accurately reproduces the music" sound quality and "OMG that sounds bad" sound quality.

Mixing subs falls into the later.

I was a n00b once too. Been there, done that. Didn't turn out well. It's ill-advised. Two sets of subs with differing response characteristics aren't going to blend well and really muddle things up.

 

[Plutoman 10+ year member]

Really?

The main thing I think of is two different sets of midbass components. You won't find huge complaints with that - it seems to me like these would be treated fairly similarly. The differing response characteristics shouldn't be so out of sync as to destroy the music - but then again, I could be wrong, I'll admit that there. I'm not the most familiar, though I've lurked for a while and done my own experiments.

An example which might be what you're thinking of is two instruments playing out of tune with each other. They've got the same general characteristics, but it's just off. Hadn't thought of that till now.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

The reason its bad to mix subs (in theory) is that every different sub (whether it be different because of motor dimension, power handling, piston size, etc.) creates a slightly different wave even when reproducing the same sound.

the difference in the waves can produce destructive interference.

However think of the ocean, there is usually a wave about every 4 seconds and it is far more common for waves to interfere constructively than destructively. This is because it takes more energy and a more precise focus of energy to stop a wave rather than to strenghthen it. Now Apply this to a wave that occurs 80 times a second and the difference is extremely hard to detect. Also the mere fact that you are adding a tremendous amount of output by the other subs almost makes the lost output due to harmonics negligable.

Would a same sub setup be better? Most definitely. Will the different sub setup be crap? ...only if you tell people they are different subs... (fyi: I mean if the cones look the same, no one will listen to your system and say... ah naw dawg you runnin different subs.)

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Really?
The main thing I think of is two different sets of midbass components. You won't find huge complaints with that - it seems to me like these would be treated fairly similarly. The differing response characteristics shouldn't be so out of sync as to destroy the music - but then again, I could be wrong, I'll admit that there. I'm not the most familiar, though I've lurked for a while and done my own experiments.

An example which might be what you're thinking of is two instruments playing out of tune with each other. They've got the same general characteristics, but it's just off. Hadn't thought of that till now.

Your instrument theory would only apply if the signal fed to the subs were different. actually you are proving yourself right... in an orchestra no 2 instruments are exactly tuned the same, in fact it is slight variations in pitch or frequency that give the orchestra such a rich, full sound.

does it sound bad when 2 different instruments play the same note, or when someone sings on key with musical instruments? of course not. well your subs cannot sing off key with each other, they receive the exact same signal. this is why a song played in your headphones sounds pretty much exactly the same as in your car (within reason and excluding volume)

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

No one to flame anymore? what happened to this site? are people getting dumber that fast?

 

[mcsoul 10+ year member]

No one to flame anymore? what happened to this site? are people getting dumber that fast?

I'm too new to know of all your antics, but from what I hear your

a ca.com legend. Now please post a pic of that multi 10 and 1 inverted

15 install so I can keep it; I thought I had it but I cannot find it.

Thanks.

 

[Plutoman 10+ year member]

Your instrument theory would only apply if the signal fed to the subs were different. actually you are proving yourself right... in an orchestra no 2 instruments are exactly tuned the same, in fact it is slight variations in pitch or frequency that give the orchestra such a rich, full sound.
does it sound bad when 2 different instruments play the same note, or when someone sings on key with musical instruments? of course not. well your subs cannot sing off key with each other, they receive the exact same signal. this is why a song played in your headphones sounds pretty much exactly the same as in your car (within reason and excluding volume)

Actually, as an Orchestral player myself, I can say the full sound comes from getting closer than the ear can tell to a perfect pitch - as in, the harmonies come from playing the octaves and fifths, and whatever the chords are - in perfect tune with each other. The full sound comes from hearing not just the same note being played, but the harmonies of the pitches played in perfect relation to each other.

Now, another part is the differences in sound - pitch needs to stay constant. In the violins, you get a full sound, as each violin has a slightly different tone - and the combination produces a sound that meshes the different tones - and the only way these mesh is with a perfect pitch. However, not all instruments work this way. I play the flute - and there is a reason they limit other instruments to single and two players. Trying to get the sounds to combine properly with the different instruments and players is nearly impossible unless you limit it to just a few. This is probably the closest comparison - such as the tuba section. You only have one or two, as they can't blend with each other excellently.

I'm guessing you could draw comparisons with this in several ways. If you get two subs with a certain sound that can mesh with the others, it will get you a full sound - but otherwise, it's not going to combine.

It's an interesting set of thoughts.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Actually, as an Orchestral player myself, I can say the full sound comes from getting closer than the ear can tell to a perfect pitch - as in, the harmonies come from playing the octaves and fifths, and whatever the chords are - in perfect tune with each other. The full sound comes from hearing not just the same note being played, but the harmonies of the pitches played in perfect relation to each other.
Now, another part is the differences in sound - pitch needs to stay constant. In the violins, you get a full sound, as each violin has a slightly different tone - and the combination produces a sound that meshes the different tones - and the only way these mesh is with a perfect pitch. However, not all instruments work this way. I play the flute - and there is a reason they limit other instruments to single and two players. Trying to get the sounds to combine properly with the different instruments and players is nearly impossible unless you limit it to just a few. This is probably the closest comparison - such as the tuba section. You only have one or two, as they can't blend with each other excellently.

I'm guessing you could draw comparisons with this in several ways. If you get two subs with a certain sound that can mesh with the others, it will get you a full sound - but otherwise, it's not going to combine.

It's an interesting set of thoughts.

Eh the choice of a small orchestra has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of tuning. Modern electronics and acoustic engineering has made a certain size orchestra superfluous.

The number of instruments is governed more by the equalization of volume, and by the need for harmony. The common modern orchestra size is a product of only using what you have to. There are many composers, such as Hector Berlioz, who would nearly go bankrupt attempting to obtain the largest orchestras possible for their performances. Berlioz sometimes had hundreds of performers.

The tubas are lessened due to such a greater volume. Granted it is easier to notice differences in pitch from an instrument with such a small and low frequency range, but it is also far easier to tune. Not to mention we aren't discussing differences in tuning...

if your amps are sending out a (X)Hz signal then both subs will play a (X)Hz tone... so ask your self this... can 2 brands tubas not sound the same, or close enough not to tell?

in an orchestra it is nearly impossible for all of the instruments (especially brass) to play the exact same amplitude... the fact is that wave construct by interference regardless of the difference in sound. believe it or not if one person is yelling a note at the top of their lungs, and another person barely audibly whispers the same note, the total amplitude goes up.

 

[Plutoman 10+ year member]

Yes - quite true.

I'm thinking in terms of tonal sounds, which are produced - they do differ in terms of amplitude, but it is a different sort of thinking. I haven't researched the scientific aspect of it - a lesson to me, I should probably do that sometime - but I know of the two different types of differences between playing.

My directors, among the good ones universally, we first match pitch - then we match our tones. It has to do with the darkness of the sounds, and other qualities. This is what I'm thinking of with different subwoofers - that would be the main reason I could see them not sounding good together.

In contrast though, you should be able to mix and match most subwoofers with a fairly decent sound that comes out. I'd imagine, in anything of lower quality - you wouldn't notice the difference much at all.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Yes - quite true.
I'm thinking in terms of tonal sounds, which are produced - they do differ in terms of amplitude, but it is a different sort of thinking. I haven't researched the scientific aspect of it - a lesson to me, I should probably do that sometime - but I know of the two different types of differences between playing.

My directors, among the good ones universally, we first match pitch - then we match our tones. It has to do with the darkness of the sounds, and other qualities. This is what I'm thinking of with different subwoofers - that would be the main reason I could see them not sounding good together.

In contrast though, you should be able to mix and match most subwoofers with a fairly decent sound that comes out. I'd imagine, in anything of lower quality - you wouldn't notice the difference much at all.

Now you're getting it...

a musical instrument when played has certain properties: pitch, tone color or timbre, dynamics and texture.

Pitch and dynamics are almost exclusively governed by the musician within the abilities of the instrument.

but timbre and texture are more closely derived from the modulation properties of the instrument themself, which a skilled musician can learn to only slightly tweek.

Now a speaker is completely different, it has no timbre because through electronic means it can modulate the frequecy however it wants (although certain sonic properties of the materials used and environment can have a small effect.)

But a speaker can also reproduce any pitch because pitch is really only a matter of how many cycles the piston goes through a second. This is why it appears that speakers can mimic pretty much any sound you can hear.

when 2 tones are played at the same time through a speaker, in effect, it is only switching back and forth between the tones so fast that you hear them as 2 seperate tones, when they are actually the same waveform when looked at. this also accounts for why it it easier to make a sub get loud using a pure frequency tone, the more tones a speaker plays the more of each tone is missing.

this doesn't matter at all with highs or even mids because there is no possible way you could tell the difference if i played a 2000Hz signal and then attenuated 1/4th of the cycles by playing a 500Hz signal on top of it.