is there a sql sub out there better than the TC LMS4000?

[anton lavey]

spec wise... i just dont see a sub better than the tc. maybe the hertz mille, but this sub is super distortion free and has some serious spl output. i'm looking to run one 15 sealed to match a fairly loud front stage. name a sub that can match or beat this sub.

TC Sounds (LMS-4000)

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[Tw1st3d13 10+ year member]

I dont think so I would take them over any SQ sub just because they are fvcking sexy

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

Although i've never heard a tc lms4000. I will say that the best sounding sub i have ever heard is the Acoustic Elegance AV12. I wish i could actually hear a lms but i doubt that is ever going to happen.. lol

 

[anton lavey]

Although i've never heard a tc lms4000. I will say that the best sounding sub i have ever heard is the Acoustic Elegance AV12. I wish i could actually hear a lms but i doubt that is ever going to happen.. lol

it might... tc is back in business. i heard a lot of good things about acoustic elegance. what was the output like on the av12? i know the sq is there... a little concerned with output

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

personally it's not sensative enough for my taste. Low end sensativity is very good I'm sure, but low bass is so easy to get in car that I'd rather get some easier free output up top at 80 than more gain at 20. SPL in a sealed enclosure is all about effeciency up top and xmax and you ability to use it wthin a given box constraint down low. You need xmax to get loud sealed, but if you need to too big a box to get the thing to move then it's worthless.

Have you modeled the LMS 4000? The Q is really high unless you go with a very large sealed box. Anyway the AV is around 90db/1w/1m and will operate in the smaller enclosures you normally see in a car alot better. Before displacement becomes a factor xmax going from 22mm to 30mm is a gain of maybe 1.5db's. This will only matter at frequencies where you drive level would exceed 22mm in order to reach that target SPL given a 15" cone. However, the 5db's of effeciency you gain up top with the AV is substancial from 50hz on up that's going to matter more than xmax. IMO, it's a better match for a car, especially since you can get a q of .5-.7 in relatively small boxes.

 

[Blue Fury 10+ year member]

paper specs are everything I see

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

paper specs are everything I see

Subs really aren't anything but air pumps. If you learn to read specs you CAN figure out how a driver will behave. Intregrating that with your tranfer function is the trickier part. You think speaker designers dont' use T/S parameters? You kids can keep chasing forum boners around looking to get louder and louder while still sounding like crap. If you dont' understand how a speaker actually works and just go off word of mouth your chasing your tail.

Getting the best of anything is hard. Figuring out whats' truly best for someone requires knowledge of their particular application as well as being able to know what things are almost always good in subwoofer (low distortion and things of that nature). Finding a sub that will do what you want in a box you can fit is best done by using t/s parameters to get an idea of how a sub will behave in that environment. If he only has 3 cubes to work the LMS 4000 ISN'T a good choice. I don't care how many watts it can handle, what steve meade says bangs, or what the xmax appears to be if he'll never reach it lol.

Sealed subs aren't hard. There is no magic tricks to making a sealed sub loud. Your limited by only having the cone move, so how far it can move on a given wattage and how far it can move period are all that matters. Beyond that if you want to keep linearity while moving (SQ as well as loud) you need certain factors that you CAN'T always see on a T/S sheet. A BL stabilizing device is a great start. The LMS uses a coil with different thickness at different points to keep BL constant as the sub moves. To keep inductance in check with such a large coil they use shorting rings to minimize Le variation over stroke. Also a good choice. The issue is the variable density coil requires a larger gap and some windings are further away from the top plate than other parts. The BL linearity is gained by losing some flux efficiency. Basically the motor really doesn't have enough oomph to push the driver. Look at the BL^2/Re ratio, hence the large sealed enclosure recommendation.

 

[anton lavey]

personally it's not sensative enough for my taste. Low end sensativity is very good I'm sure, but low bass is so easy to get in car that I'd rather get some easier free output up top at 80 than more gain at 20. SPL in a sealed enclosure is all about effeciency up top and xmax and you ability to use it wthin a given box constraint down low. You need xmax to get loud sealed, but if you need to too big a box to get the thing to move then it's worthless.
Have you modeled the LMS 4000? The Q is really high unless you go with a very large sealed box. Anyway the AV is around 90db/1w/1m and will operate in the smaller enclosures you normally see in a car alot better. Before displacement becomes a factor xmax going from 22mm to 30mm is a gain of maybe 1.5db's. This will only matter at frequencies where you drive level would exceed 22mm in order to reach that target SPL given a 15" cone. However, the 5db's of effeciency you gain up top with the AV is substancial from 50hz on up that's going to matter more than xmax. IMO, it's a better match for a car, especially since you can get a q of .5-.7 in relatively small boxes.

what about a temptest X2 in a 3.5 cubic ft. box with 3 passive radiators?

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

Honestly, super good idea. You want high output, you don't mind ported, you just don't like port noise, correct? A passive radiator is basically a port without the chance of any noise, as well a a smaller box since it takes up no space. Again, it depends on what type of output your looking for and how much output. IMO, the tempest X2's do better in sealed enclosures for a car. They really just tend to look a bit peaky ported compared to what i prefer. They were designed to be in big boxes either sealed, or an EBS alignment, which is tuned so low that the higher Q doesn't cause a huge peak, just evens it out WAYYY down the line, like 15hz lol. When your tuning at 28-32, you get some big fat low end. It may be what your looking for, IDK. If your last setup was a typical car audio sub ported and you didn't mind it's response then this would be a great option. If you like the SQ and balance of a sealed enclosure and just wish it could be louder, I'd try the AV15's in a PR alignment. They have a very low q and model alot like a bottom heavy sealed box when put into a PR or ported enclosure of a relatively small size.

Also you won't need 3 passives on one sub. Just a single 15 with two passives that are also 15" will ensure you don't run out of excursion on the passives. I'll model a 3.5 PR box and give you tuning advice in a minute.

edit: In order to keep the in check with a full 1000 watts in 3.5 cubes you'll want the driver, plus the kit with 3 washer attached. Tuning ends up at 26hz, looks good honestly. If you want to use 2 washers you could, but you'd want a ssf around 25hz to protect the driver, the2 15's passives never run out of throw in either situation. The 2 washers is tuned at 29hz or so, doesn't look that much different SPL wise honestly, but is harder on the driver down low. XBL^2 drivers soft bottom inherently though, so you may be ok either way, especially since music doesn't drop low much. IMO, use 3 washer though.

 

[Blue Fury 10+ year member]

you must not have understood my sarcasm to the OP

 

[Tw1st3d13 10+ year member]

Honestly, super good idea. You want high output, you don't mind ported, you just don't like port noise, correct? A passive radiator is basically a port without the chance of any noise, as well a a smaller box since it takes up no space. Again, it depends on what type of output your looking for and how much output. IMO, the tempest X2's do better in sealed enclosures for a car. They really just tend to look a bit peaky ported compared to what i prefer. They were designed to be in big boxes either sealed, or an EBS alignment, which is tuned so low that the higher Q doesn't cause a huge peak, just evens it out WAYYY down the line, like 15hz lol. When your tuning at 28-32, you get some big fat low end. It may be what your looking for, IDK. If your last setup was a typical car audio sub ported and you didn't mind it's response then this would be a great option. If you like the SQ and balance of a sealed enclosure and just wish it could be louder, I'd try the AV15's in a PR alignment. They have a very low q and model alot like a bottom heavy sealed box when put into a PR or ported enclosure of a relatively small size.
Also you won't need 3 passives on one sub. Just a single 15 with two passives that are also 15" will ensure you don't run out of excursion on the passives. I'll model a 3.5 PR box and give you tuning advice in a minute.

edit: In order to keep the in check with a full 1000 watts in 3.5 cubes you'll want the driver, plus the kit with 3 washer attached. Tuning ends up at 26hz, looks good honestly. If you want to use 2 washers you could, but you'd want a ssf around 25hz to protect the driver, the2 15's passives never run out of throw in either situation. The 2 washers is tuned at 29hz or so, doesn't look that much different SPL wise honestly, but is harder on the driver down low. XBL^2 drivers soft bottom inherently though, so you may be ok either way, especially since music doesn't drop low much. IMO, use 3 washer though.

If i ever need a box done I'm coming to you! But you would need double the cone space if you used a PR? For 2 15's you would need 2 18" Pr's or 4 14" Prs? And is there a power limit on the passive or would it be better to go sealed for SQ?

 

[anton lavey]

Honestly, super good idea. You want high output, you don't mind ported, you just don't like port noise, correct? A passive radiator is basically a port without the chance of any noise, as well a a smaller box since it takes up no space. Again, it depends on what type of output your looking for and how much output. IMO, the tempest X2's do better in sealed enclosures for a car. They really just tend to look a bit peaky ported compared to what i prefer. They were designed to be in big boxes either sealed, or an EBS alignment, which is tuned so low that the higher Q doesn't cause a huge peak, just evens it out WAYYY down the line, like 15hz lol. When your tuning at 28-32, you get some big fat low end. It may be what your looking for, IDK. If your last setup was a typical car audio sub ported and you didn't mind it's response then this would be a great option. If you like the SQ and balance of a sealed enclosure and just wish it could be louder, I'd try the AV15's in a PR alignment. They have a very low q and model alot like a bottom heavy sealed box when put into a PR or ported enclosure of a relatively small size.
Also you won't need 3 passives on one sub. Just a single 15 with two passives that are also 15" will ensure you don't run out of excursion on the passives. I'll model a 3.5 PR box and give you tuning advice in a minute.

edit: In order to keep the in check with a full 1000 watts in 3.5 cubes you'll want the driver, plus the kit with 3 washer attached. Tuning ends up at 26hz, looks good honestly. If you want to use 2 washers you could, but you'd want a ssf around 25hz to protect the driver, the2 15's passives never run out of throw in either situation. The 2 washers is tuned at 29hz or so, doesn't look that much different SPL wise honestly, but is harder on the driver down low. XBL^2 drivers soft bottom inherently though, so you may be ok either way, especially since music doesn't drop low much. IMO, use 3 washer though.

very good advice... you really know your stuff. sooo... you want me to ditch the temptest and go with an ae av15?

 

[anton lavey]

stryke av15?

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

anyway since you started off wanted a sealed box, here is the AV15 in a 2.5 cubic foot enclosure with some passives on each side vs the exodus audio tempest sealed in 5 cubes sealed. As you can see you get more bass, half the size and the response curve is similar. Getting a sealed sub louder or cleaner than the exodus is pretty hard, you'd need somethign like an LMS ultra a big box AND alot of power to get there. This solution is a little more elegant. half the box size and 2db's more output all the way across, basically the same overall response, just louder. As a matter of fact, the tempest was bottoming out in that comparison, if I shrink the box to 3.5 cubes so it can take the full 1000 and reach xmax at 20hz, you actually get a sharper dropoff on the low end on the bottom yellow curve.



It would help if you could tell me how you want it to sound? What setups have you had in your car that you liked vs not like? O I assume listening to metal you dont' want something super bottom heavy and want something that will sound tight and accurate... All cars are different though, so unless I know what sounds good to you in your car, modelling anything is hard since I can't compare evenly and I dont' know your tastes.

Anyway if you go sealed, I'd do the Tempest X in about 3.5 cubes sealed. If you want to go the PR route, both subs work, but the AV will sound a little less boomy, which may be good for metal as alot of people who listen to rock don't like the typical ported enclosure often used for rap. If that's the case, the AV with 2 passives in 2.5 cubes looks very good as I already graphed. That's actually the setup I'll be using in my car, except I'll be using 2 AV15's and 5 cubes to get the same overall effect. The tempest X's using passives tuned low could be a MEAN groundpounder though, lol, for rap if I wanted to move air that's what I'd build lol. Anyway, for me SQL means an actual SQ setup that sounds good and blends at low volumes. However, you can turn up the volume knob and keep that even response, you can just get it very loud.

Anyway my front stage is pretty monstrous compared to most on here. I'm using B&C cmpression drivers mated to horns and my mids are image dyanamic xs69's with about 300 watts on each of them. My car can pretty well recreate a live drum kit from 80hz and up if that gives you any idea, sounds like actual drums are in the car with you, blinking every time someone hits a snare and you can feel it in your chest. On regular music you can scream and not hear yourself over it if I push it hard enough. (yes I've had people try lol). Imo, for a regular component set a single AV 15 should be enough bass. My single AA avalanche sealed kept up with my current fronstage pretty well and that's in a cadillac with thick back seats. That sub is basically a downgraded Tempest X as the tempest is newer and a better sub all around, but very similar.

 

[anton lavey]

anyway since you started off wanted a sealed box, here is the AV15 in a 2.5 cubic foot enclosure with some passives on each side vs the exodus audio tempest sealed in 5 cubes sealed. As you can see you get more bass, half the size and the response curve is similar. Getting a sealed sub louder or cleaner than the exodus is pretty hard, you'd need somethign like an LMS ultra a big box AND alot of power to get there. This solution is a little more elegant. half the size and 2db's more output all the way across, basically the same overall response, just louder. As a matter of fact, the tempest was bottoming out in that comparison, if I shrink the box to 3.5 cubes so it can take the full 1000 and reach xmax at 20hz, you actually get a sharper dropoff on the low end.


It would help if you could tell me how you want it to sound? What setups have you had in your car that you liked vs not like? O I assume listening to metal you dont' want something super bottom heavy and want something that will sound tight and accurate...

my last set-up was three 12" RD audio sonances ported. it was pretty loud, but you could hear port and motor noise. my set-up before that was 3 idq12's sealed in a down-fire enclosure. it was very clean but it didnt dig too deep. i know to get that solid chest thumping kick-drum crack you gotta have a solid front-stage. most run a 3-way. midbass, midrange, and tweet... or a high efficient 8" and horns. i want this system to be a little more simple. thats why i'm going with boston acoustics srz60's with 350 watts going to each side.