If JL is good but overpriced, at what price point should they be?

[livinlegend 10+ year member]

Yes, the B&Ms lose. In competition, sometimes there are losers.


Many. I don't know of an entity that large that doesn't have a problem with workers rights.

Exactly...and when it comes to home audio I trust the audiojunkies blog 10x more than any retailer. The few I have been to like to use adjectives I don't understand. I might have $2k in my wallet, but if you try to baffle me, then get conscious and leave. You explain it in layman's terms and listen to what I am describing I want, tell me how you product meets those goals, and you have a sale. Everytime I try to look at the Klipshe stuff, some fool strolls by telling me all these words I do not know.

exactly.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Yes, the B&Ms lose. In competition, sometimes there are losers. those that sell unauthorized aren't legitimate sellers to begin with and if/when they do become authorized dealers they will have this little thing called overhead to deal with. online still lags behind in store sales in most everything including car audio

Many. I don't know of an entity that large that doesn't have a problem with workers rights.

Exactly...and when it comes to home audio I trust the audiojunkies blog 10x more than any retailer. The few I have been to like to use adjectives I don't understand. I might have $2k in my wallet, but if you try to baffle me, then get conscious and leave. You explain it in layman's terms and listen to what I am describing I want, tell me how you product meets those goals, and you have a sale. Everytime I try to look at the Klipshe stuff, some fool strolls by telling me all these words I do not know.

if you do your reasearch like you say you do there should be nothing to get baffled about lol

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

So those dealers that play by the rules get screwed while struggling to hold onto their product line. That really seems like the manufacturer should be doing more to protect their bread and butter. What, I don't know but it just seems like that if they put their minds to it they could secure their product line better. That is what leads me to believe that manufacturers look the other way.

Two things:

The reputable companies actually do go to some lengths to keep their retailers from being undercut. JL is the name that everyone thinks of when they hear "no online sales are authorized" but the overwhelming majority of the mid to high end companies have the same policy. They do it for two reasons: first is to protect the retailer, second is to protect their company by protecting the consumer. The assumption is being made that the discounted item being sold on the internet are A stock items and that they were purchased through a legitimate distribution network. They company won't warranty the product because they can't verify any of the above. Could be a really good fake. Could be a B stock or an item that didn't pass QC and then "disappeared." Could be stolen. When these grey products get out there they damage the reputation of the company whose name is on them because they are of questionable quality. People like to ride JL's nuts about authorized purchases only, but I don't hear the same grief thrown at Zapco or the like.

It falls on the proprietor of the B&M as well to make sure that they are competitive. There will always be those people that only see the price tag. They don't make up bulk of the market in real car audio. The majority of the consumers are not educated on car audio and are also incapable or unwilling to do the installation themselves. This is where the B&Ms come into the picture and where their role is centered. A small shop almost never can move enough product to keep the lights on. The install bay is where their money is made. A small shop also can hardly afford to have a lot of money tied up in product sitting on the shelf in the back. Every shop I've ever dealt with would keep a few of some of the basics in stock, but for any serious purchase it was a special order. That makes good business sense. Once ordered the product was available in a few days. Never a big deal for me. I also always had a good relationship with the owners of these shops and they would usually give me a good price. I never asked for a discount, they offered it. They built a relationship in the interest of long term sales. They do right by me, I tell my friends, etc... Best advertising there is and it costs very little. Those shops without exception had knowledgeable people working there. That is the key to the B&M staying in business. They can offer some things that are worth a bit extra. Real face to face customer support. Help with troubleshooting should the need arise. Help with system design. Help with tuning. The ability to do the installation and do it right if the customer is unable for whatever reason. Unfortunately way too many of the shops out there lack the knowledge base to be able to provide these things. IMO, them going away is not a loss.

Final note: As far as the whole WalMart thing, I've yet to see anything other than anecdotal evidence that they are bad for the economy. The people whining about not getting paid enough or deserving more benefits should learn a marketable skill that will get them a job that pays more or has better benefits. They are paid commensurate with the value added to the company. If they were really worth more they would be paid accordingly. Basic labor economics.

 

[wvufootball 10+ year member]

good god a mature, intelligent discussion is happening on caraudio.com What is the world coming to.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Final note: As far as the whole WalMart thing, I've yet to see anything other than anecdotal evidence that they are bad for the economy. The people whining about not getting paid enough or deserving more benefits should learn a marketable skill that will get them a job that pays more or has better benefits. They are paid commensurate with the value added to the company. If they were really worth more they would be paid accordingly. Basic labor economics.

its because you don't look up the bad and don't realize what they do to other businesses. they have too much control and buying power for the small stores to compete with. if you want to dig in this area we can but essensally would be pointless.

when a store knocks down the price of most goods to where it is hard to make $ without large volume it kills the small guy until a recession hits and kills the big store...it has already happened before. when the big stores no longer sell at the volume they need they start going under rather quickly to compensate they either need to increase profit margin or cut back on stores. this happened in the 70's . alot of local small sucessful electronics shops opened after the demise of MW Electric Avenues and big stores like them.

with the housing market doing what it is now anyone wanna guess which chain stores will be feeling the pinch? i could have made a nice bet with a rather large developer except we both agreed at least either lowes, home depot, or menards would be one of the first to pull back and downsize. according to him housing is a pretty important factor in the economy (he says most) and since less people do home improvements on houses that are losing value daily it sounds pretty plausible. couple that with a falling dollar that leaves a lot of potential for a recession and with what we import, will cost us more dollars for the SAME product. According to the article i am reading about excuses why Wal-mart is'nt doing as well as they projected they blamed growth, adding higher end clothing, bad service, poor macro managment of "lower middle class customers", and the COST OF GAS. wtf do you think a recession will do? when times get tough the majority of people dont spend the same on food, gas, entertainment or clothes. you are probably thinking it sounds like this is right up wal-marts alley but it will kill their volume. not to mention there are less expensive grocery stores, and cheaper places to get clothes than wally world.

i know just on the hobby side of things the little French engines i like to run in my race cars took a 15% price increase already with another 15% increase that is said to hit by spring and maybe another 15% by fall ALL due to the value of the dollar vs the euro.

also i might add in every wal-mart i have been too the closest thing to a salesman i have ever seen is a shelf stocker with far less knowledge about the tv's they have than a salesman at BBY or even worse CC lol. to Wal-mart, rather than sell a product for what its real value is (what other stores seemingly have little trouble in doing) they cut the price to move it. Now as a consumer you say its a good thing but in reality it means they will talk a name brand manufacturer into producing more cheap junk to get the price even lower. anything high end is not ment to be sold in stores like BBY never the less wal-mart. plus if you are doing so great and making money for your share holders why would they outwordly price cut groceries, toys and electronics lower than your "already lowest price"? drop the proffit margin from 18% to 10% on a name brand lcd screen now you have to sell nearly twice as many to make the same amount. think you will sell twice as much of anything during a recession?//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif the people who actually have the money to spend will go to a place to get good service and a higher end tv.

in 2006 a share of Wal-mart stock was worth about $70, today it is just over $48. also 10 out of the last 15 quarters Target has been out performing Wal-mart.

you can say i might not have been worth what i was getting paid but i didnt get paid unless i sold something....and i also would spend the time (sometimes over an hour) to help a person pick out just the right 27" tubed tv. if you are or were in the bussiness you would know there was no money in that part of it but a customer is a customer.

you can sit back and say i am full of shit, that i am paranoid or that i am clueless because everything boils down to what the customer pays. real world also depends on how much one wants to invest and how much one gets on their return investment. unfortunately we live in the times of Haliburton, Blackwater, a government that "loses" billions of dollars somewhere in the war, Enron and a home mortage mess that is so bad and NOT monitored that the government can't decide to press charges, fine them or simply help bail the industry out well after the damage has been done:wow: i am smart enough to understand however when someone says they did xx billion in sales and profit was on target but sales were not doesnt mean you made money at all. simply means you made the right percentage on what you sold but did not have enough volume.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

its because you don't look up the bad and don't realize what they do to other businesses. they have too much control and buying power for the small stores to compete with.
also i might add in every wal-mart i have been too the closest thing to a salesman i have ever seen is a shelf stocker with far less knowledge about the tv's they have than a salesman at BBY or even worse CC lol. to Wal-mart, rather than sell a product for what its real value is (what other stores seemingly have little trouble in doing) they cut the price to move it. Now as a consumer you say its a good thing but in reality it means they will talk a name brand manufacturer into producing more cheap junk to get the price even lower. anything high end is not ment to be sold in stores like BBY never the less wal-mart. plus if you are doing so great and making money for your share holders why would they outwordly price cut groceries, toys and electronics lower than your "already lowest price"? drop the proffit margin from 18% to 10% on a name brand lcd screen now you have to sell nearly twice as many to make the same amount. think you will sell twice as much of anything during a recession?//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif the people who actually have the money to spend will go to a place to get good service and a higher end tv.

Put those two together and you will see how the little guy competes. You don't make money selling to the masses as a little guy. You have to find a niche in the market that the big box can't fill. Knowledge of the sales staff and experienced installation guys are the leg up that the little guy has. They can go out and find the experienced people and pay them commensurate with their experience and recoup the extra salary on marketing this person's experience to their niche market.

i know just on the hobby side of things the little French engines i like to run in my race cars took a 15% price increase already with another 15% increase that is said to hit by spring and maybe another 15% by fall ALL due to the value of the dollar vs the euro.

RB Concepts? Their prices go up regardless of the dollar to euro relationship. French workers are horribly less than American workers and have an even more inflated sense of self worth.

with the housing market doing what it is now anyone wanna guess which chain stores will be feeling the pinch? i could have made a nice bet with a rather large developer except we both agreed at least either lowes, home depot, or menards would be one of the first to pull back and downsize. according to him housing is a pretty important factor in the economy (he says most) and since less people do home improvements on houses that are losing value daily it sounds pretty plausible. couple that with a falling dollar that leaves a lot of potential for a recession and with what we import, will cost us more dollars for the SAME product.

People that aren't planning on selling their house don't care about the current market value of it and continue to do home improvement projects. In a macro sense, the correction in the housing market will be a good thing. It will rebound in about a year and all the idiot lenders who caused the whole mess in the first place have put themselves out of business with their own stupidity. I will be genuinely pissed if the government does any kind of bailout. These are crappy business people who need to be out of business. Same with the real estate agents. The good agents are weathering the storm. The shitty ones had to find another job to pay the bills. It also put the hurt on the real estate speculators. I'm glad they're gone. They were the impetus behind the huge spike in housing prices in the first place. They priced the normal person looking for a place to live right out of the market which led the banks to come up with these criminal loans so the average person could afford to buy a house. A lot of the people that bought houses with these loans are in a bad way right now, but it was self induced and therefore I can't feel too sorry for them. They were not on solid financial footing in the first place and had no business buying a house. Works out well for me at this point because I am in a financial place to look at buying some long term investment properties and the market is low.

According to the article i am reading about excuses why Wal-mart is'nt doing as well as they projected they blamed growth, adding higher end clothing, bad service, poor macro managment of "lower middle class customers", and the COST OF GAS. wtf do you think a recession will do? when times get tough the majority of people dont spend the same on food, gas, entertainment or clothes. you are probably thinking it sounds like this is right up wal-marts alley but it will kill their volume. not to mention there are less expensive grocery stores, and cheaper places to get clothes than wally world.

Not doing well referenced to what? They are still hugely profitable and historically they have done their best during slow periods in the market.

in 2006 a share of Wal-mart stock was worth about $70, today it is just over $48. also 10 out of the last 15 quarters Target has been out performing Wal-mart.

Outperforming based on what? Stock price? Google FTW on that one. They don't even sell anything and their stock is trading at a retarded price.

you can say i might not have been worth what i was getting paid but i didnt get paid unless i sold something....and i also would spend the time (sometimes over an hour) to help a person pick out just the right 27" tubed tv. if you are or were in the bussiness you would know there was no money in that part of it but a customer is a customer.

There is a lot of money to be made in that part of the business, that's my point. You may not make it on that one sale, but if the customer is happy they will come back for other things and will recommend the store to their friends. That is the competitive edge that the small store has. There are consumers and there are customers.

 

[MorningWood]

It falls on the proprietor of the B&M as well to make sure that they are competitive. There will always be those people that only see the price tag. They don't make up bulk of the market in real car audio. The majority of the consumers are not educated on car audio and are also incapable or unwilling to do the installation themselves. This is where the B&Ms come into the picture and where their role is centered. A small shop almost never can move enough product to keep the lights on. The install bay is where their money is made. A small shop also can hardly afford to have a lot of money tied up in product sitting on the shelf in the back. Every shop I've ever dealt with would keep a few of some of the basics in stock, but for any serious purchase it was a special order. That makes good business sense. Once ordered the product was available in a few days. Never a big deal for me. I also always had a good relationship with the owners of these shops and they would usually give me a good price. I never asked for a discount, they offered it. They built a relationship in the interest of long term sales. They do right by me, I tell my friends, etc... Best advertising there is and it costs very little. Those shops without exception had knowledgeable people working there. That is the key to the B&M staying in business. They can offer some things that are worth a bit extra. Real face to face customer support. Help with troubleshooting should the need arise. Help with system design. Help with tuning. The ability to do the installation and do it right if the customer is unable for whatever reason. Unfortunately way too many of the shops out there lack the knowledge base to be able to provide these things. IMO, them going away is not a loss.

Helo, you make some good points with the first issue you discussed. No doubt there are some very good reasons why a company should protect its product line and the authorized retailers of its products. Whether a particular company decides these considerations outweigh their desire for short term gain is another matter. I can't help but notice that the products of some companies are always available unauthorized and you rarely see the products of other companies being sold unauthorized. Of course there are several explanaitions, including the volume of products produced and put into the stream of commerce.

As for your second point, I think we agree on what it takes for a B & M to earn the consumers business. We have just had different personal experiences.

I don't pretend to have anywhere near the knowledge of audio that you and many of the other members here have. So, when I go into in an audio shop and it is painfully obvious that they are saying things that even I know is wrong, things do not look too good for them to earn my business. Likewise, when I ask them about their installation techniques and it is well below the standards of the average member here, I do not see the benefit of purchasing from them.

What I would be willing to do is give a B & M my business if I was confident that the staff could help me get more out of the system than I could get myself. Unfortunately, my observations lead me to believe that most of these shops are satisfied in the "low hanging fruit." That is, they cater to the unknolwedgeable consumer who just wants something loud so that people can hear them coming down the street.

It's their business, I guess they know where they can make money. However, I don't think that those of us do not care to pay more for less should be criticized when we opt to buy online and do the install ourselves.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Put those two together and you will see how the little guy competes. You don't make money selling to the masses as a little guy. You have to find a niche in the market that the big box can't fill. Knowledge of the sales staff and experienced installation guys are the leg up that the little guy has. They can go out and find the experienced people and pay them commensurate with their experience and recoup the extra salary on marketing this person's experience to their niche market.I am not talking about electronics only here. for every thing you throw in here i can throw 2 back then in turn you can start throwing 2 or 3 back. i dont want to waste time doing that. all that would end up is showing what type of monopoly they are trying to turn it into

RB Concepts? Their prices go up regardless of the dollar to euro relationship. French workers are horribly less than American workers and have an even more inflated sense of self worth.

first price hike in 2 years. RB, Nova-Rossi both went up and already announced for later on

People that aren't planning on selling their house don't care about the current market value of it and continue to do home improvement projects. In a macro sense, the correction in the housing market will be a good thing. It will rebound in about a year and all the idiot lenders who caused the whole mess in the first place have put themselves out of business with their own stupidity. I will be genuinely pissed if the government does any kind of bailout. These are crappy business people who need to be out of business. Same with the real estate agents. The good agents are weathering the storm. The shitty ones had to find another job to pay the bills. It also put the hurt on the real estate speculators. I'm glad they're gone. They were the impetus behind the huge spike in housing prices in the first place. They priced the normal person looking for a place to live right out of the market which led the banks to come up with these criminal loans so the average person could afford to buy a house. A lot of the people that bought houses with these loans are in a bad way right now, but it was self induced and therefore I can't feel too sorry for them. They were not on solid financial footing in the first place and had no business buying a house. Works out well for me at this point because I am in a financial place to look at buying some long term investment properties and the market is low.

the developer seemed to think otherwise. since he is a multi billionaire (a lot of his business depends on the housing industry) i think i will take his word that it will take a FEW years. government has already started to aide in the bail out. the money to do the loans didn't come from the US it came from loans from China. any way you want to cut it the people wanting to do large scale home improvements wont be borrowing the money to get the job done

Not doing well referenced to what? They are still hugely profitable and historically they have done their best during slow periods in the market.

Outperforming based on what? Stock price? Google FTW on that one. They don't even sell anything and their stock is trading at a retarded price.

if your stock traded at $70 less than 24 months ago and now it is $48 how can it be so profitable? i would think the stock would rise not lower. Target's stock is currently $50 http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/04/06/behemoth-vs-rising-titan-wal-mart-and-target/

profit is not your bottom line, you also just can't say if we sell XX billion we met our goal as there are afew other factors that go into that

There is a lot of money to be made in that part of the business, that's my point. You may not make it on that one sale, but if the customer is happy they will come back for other things and will recommend the store to their friends. That is the competitive edge that the small store has. There are consumers and there are customers.

I already know this. How would you think I knew? I lived it and done it. I made more than 2 store managers at BBY. (Pretty sure the GM made alot more though) My only draw back was I got into owning a distributorship that I was not prepared to deal with.

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

the reason JL is priced the way it is is because people will pay it. It's having the name like having a mercedes its a status icon. Also, most people dont care to research and find out the best value like most of us. JL is good, but not that good. It is mainstream and readily available everywhere pretty much.

i personally wont ever have JL in my car because i like to show people other stuff out there that is better for cheaper.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

the reason JL is priced the way it is is because people will pay it. It's having the name like having a mercedes its a status icon. Also, most people dont care to research and find out the best value like most of us. JL is good, but not that good. It is mainstream and readily available everywhere pretty much.

i personally wont ever have JL in my car because i like to show people other stuff out there that is better for cheaper.

what "stuff that is better for cheaper" even has a foothold in the market?

the woofers that truely outperform the W7 all cost more and all take more power to make them truely out perform it. like RE? the new XXX costs well over a grand.

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

ok. ill throw something out there for everyone to think about, and if you follow economics, you should hear this in the near future.

Subpriming.

if anyone is unfamiliar with this terminology and its relationship to the economy right now, ill explain a little. I intern at an economics firm called Forensic Economics, Inc. and we are dealing with a class action on the subject of subpriming. I wont go too much into it, theres a lot of stories out there just search google for those of you interested in it more. Basically its that mortgage loans have been given out to people who are considered "subprime" as a "prime" loan. A lot of lying has been done at many levels. Overall, its the single reason the housing market is doing so poorly right now with a record high number of foreclosures and seizing properties. It caused about 400 billion dollars worth of damages and Citibank, the single largest bank in the world, has to get outside investors because they were in extreme danger of going bankrupt. It is having a ripple effect across the world economy, mainly effecting interest rates, especially in the US. expect the fed to increase interest rates on loans, as well as many other things.

well, again, i didnt want to go too much in depth as i dont know everything in that case but should shed some light to those who are interested. and i posted this because i saw a remark about how the housing market is dooring really poorly right now, this is why

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

ok. ill throw something out there for everyone to think about, and if you follow economics, you should hear this in the near future.
Subpriming.

if anyone is unfamiliar with this terminology and its relationship to the economy right now, ill explain a little. I intern at an economics firm called Forensic Economics, Inc. and we are dealing with a class action on the subject of subpriming. I wont go too much into it, theres a lot of stories out there just search google for those of you interested in it more. Basically its that mortgage loans have been given out to people who are considered "subprime" as a "prime" loan. A lot of lying has been done at many levels. Overall, its the single reason the housing market is doing so poorly right now with a record high number of foreclosures and seizing properties. It caused about 400 billion dollars worth of damages and Citibank, the single largest bank in the world, has to get outside investors because they were in extreme danger of going bankrupt. It is having a ripple effect across the world economy, mainly effecting interest rates, especially in the US. expect the fed to increase interest rates on loans, as well as many other things.

well, again, i didnt want to go too much in depth as i dont know everything in that case but should shed some light to those who are interested. and i posted this because i saw a remark about how the housing market is dooring really poorly right now, this is why

like there arent news stories about it? lol JK

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

what "stuff that is better for cheaper" even has a foothold in the market?the woofers that truely outperform the W7 all cost more and all take more power to make them truely out perform it. like RE? the new XXX costs well over a grand.

check this out.

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12893

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

now im not saying excursion is everything but i would take a mag over a w7 any day.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

now im not saying excursion is everything but i would take a mag over a w7 any day.

lol because its cheaper? how readily avalible are these? can i go to my local shop and pick one up? how is the warranty? can i take it to my local shop and drop it off to be sent in or replaced at the shop? which woofer looks better? which one uses all of it's own distinctive parts?

i can look at this another way as well. timex and mavado are both watches and both keep time. one carries alot more status than the other though wouldn't you agree? (some people would use rolex but i dont consider JL a rolex not that it is'nt that good but it ISN'T that expensive.)

NOT KNOCKING the mag at all and i respect how it is being put out. JL also came from a smallish beginings. in fact when i bought my first pair i mail ordered them from Speaker Warehouse in Hollywood Florida in '89 or '90 and Manville Smith was one of the salesmen i talked to. All it took for me was looking what they did in competition (this was back when i would honestly say SQ was huge and shows were all alot better than they are now) and seeing them in Tommy Clark's rocket science van.

i have an AA atlas. not to say it is a bad speaker but there are 2 "lesser" subs i would take over them. a memphis M3 and an IDQ.

I will agree excursion isnt everything as i would take an ID IDW over everything listed in this thread and it has less excursion than everything in this thread.