Four 12's or two 15's?

[lnsomnia]

Break in isn't by cone area. That's a neo SPL monster.

Oh. .__.

So would I be hitting some high numbers with that 21" at let's say ~1200 rms in a 9 cubed box tuned at 30hz? And I'm assuming It would definitely be a ground pounder?

And it's interesting to see that the cone area of a single 21 is 346.185; assuming I did the math right. That's still quite a bit less than the cone area of four 12's being 452.39.

I was thinking a 21 would have about the same if not more cone area than four 12's. I guess I thought wrong. Regardless, I'm assuming that death penalty will hit lows like no other.

 

[T.I.K. 10+ year member]

Oh. .__.
So would I be hitting some high numbers with that 21" at let's say ~1200 rms in a 9 cubed box tuned at 30hz? And I'm assuming It would definitely be a ground pounder?

Feeding that sub half of its RMS would probably not do much. SPL subs like that are incredibly stiff, thus their efficiency is horrible(compared to other subs). You need a lot of power to get them moving, but once you get to that point, they'll fucking move.

IA is actually about to release a new version of the warden, so if spending $1000 on a single woofer sounds like something you'd like to do, just wait a bit for them to officially release it,

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Oh. .__.
So would I be hitting some high numbers with that 21" at let's say ~1200 rms in a 9 cubed box tuned at 30hz? And I'm assuming It would definitely be a ground pounder?

And it's interesting to see that the cone area of a single 21 is 346.185; assuming I did the math right. That's still quite a bit less than the cone area of four 12's being 452.39.

I was thinking a 21 would have about the same if not more cone area than four 12's. I guess I thought wrong. Regardless, I'm assuming that death penalty will hit lows like no other.

Cone area don't mean anything if the motor force and excursion is not there. But that sub is not a ground pounder and 9 cubes would be to small. That's the Warden not the DP. Neither are know for the lows. Not that they can't hit them but its not strong.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

If you want to drop that kind of money and want to run high power I would do a single SMD 18.

 

[T.I.K. 10+ year member]

Keep in mind that 12" subs do not have 12" of cone area. 12" is usually to the outside of the surround, which does not count towards the cone area of a woofer. Look at the "Sd" T/S parameter to see the actual usable surface area of a subwoofer.

for quick guestimates, using square numbers is easier, and for what you're probably comparing, not too inaccurate.

 

[lnsomnia]

Feeding that sub half of its RMS would probably not do much. SPL subs like that are incredibly stiff, thus their efficiency is horrible(compared to other subs). You need a lot of power to get them moving, but once you get to that point, they'll fucking move.
IA is actually about to release a new version of the warden, so if spending $1000 on a single woofer sounds like something you'd like to do, just wait a bit for them to officially release it,

Well Death Penalty 21 Incriminator Audio 21" 1500W Death Penalty Series - 1800woofers.com has the DP for 600. I would rather spend 600 than 1000. But if the warden 21 is going to be three times efficient and better than the DP; than I may as well go with the warden. (I haven't even heard of that sub tbh. I'll have to look into it.)

Cone area don't mean anything if the motor force and excursion is not there. But that sub is not a ground pounder and 9 cubes would be to small. That's the Warden not the DP. Neither are know for the lows. Not that they can't hit them but its not strong.

I'm surprised that a 21" subwoofer wouldn't be capable of hitting lows? I know that I definitely don't understand the T/S of subs completely, but I always assumed the bigger the cone; the more potential it has to hit lower notes. Guess I'm wrong at that as well. Considering that the 21 wouldn't really be capable of being a ground pounder is kind of a turn off. But a 21 would still look **** in my car. I could also probably fit in 10 cubes if I'm lucky. I have yet to do serious measuring.

Edit: I now know what the Warden is now lol... Yeah, that's a lot of money. Probably out of my price range at least as of now. I was really hoping for around 600. I suppose I could always buy the DP, save up some money for a few months, sell the DP, and upgrade to the Warden? I don't even know. This whole new 21" idea completely threw me off, but it would be sick to wall off in my car.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Well Death Penalty 21 Incriminator Audio 21" 1500W Death Penalty Series - 1800woofers.com has the DP for 600. I would rather spend 600 than 1000. But if the warden 21 is going to be three times efficient and better than the DP; than I may as well go with the warden. (I haven't even heard of that sub tbh. I'll have to look into it.)


I'm surprised that a 21" subwoofer wouldn't be capable of hitting lows? I know that I definitely don't understand the T/S of subs completely, but I always assumed the bigger the cone; the more potential it has to hit lower notes. Guess I'm wrong at that as well. Considering that the 21 wouldn't really be capable of being a ground pounder is kind of a turn off. But a 21 would still look **** in my car. I could also probably fit in 10 cubes if I'm lucky. I have yet to do serious measuring.

Edit: I now know what the Warden is now lol... Yeah, that's a lot of money. Probably out of my price range at least as of now. I was really hoping for around 600. I suppose I could always buy the DP, save up some money for a few months, sell the DP, and upgrade to the Warden? I don't even know. This whole new 21" idea completely threw me off, but it would be sick to wall off in my car.

Lows have little to do with cone area. Cone area means more output if you are comparing the same sub.

 

[lnsomnia]

Lows have little to do with cone area. Cone area means more output if you are comparing the same sub.

I see. Well... I want that 21". I can't afford the Warden, so I'll have to wall the DP until I can afford the Warden. I might as well get into some SPL comps since this is an SPL sub. I understand that this won't really be able to be a ground pounder, but PLEASE tell me the DP will hit the lows better than two 12 cvx's tuned to 31hz in a 4 cubed box.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I see. Well... I want that 21". I can't afford the Warden, so I'll have to wall the DP until I can afford the Warden. I might as well get into some SPL comps since this is an SPL sub. I understand that this won't really be able to be a ground pounder, but PLEASE tell me the DP will hit the lows better than two 12 cvx's tuned to 31hz in a 4 cubed box.

It will since Kickers don't hit low. I would tune around 35 and let it eat. 10 cubes.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Something else to think about. DD has a 21 now in the Z. I think you can get a 9500 also. That's a ground pounder.

 

[T.I.K. 10+ year member]

I'm surprised that a 21" subwoofer wouldn't be capable of hitting lows? I know that I definitely don't understand the T/S of subs completely, but I always assumed the bigger the cone; the more potential it has to hit lower notes. Guess I'm wrong at that as well. Considering that the 21 wouldn't really be capable of being a ground pounder is kind of a turn off. But a 21 would still look **** in my car. I could also probably fit in 10 cubes if I'm lucky. I have yet to do serious measuring.
Edit: I now know what the Warden is now lol... Yeah, that's a lot of money. Probably out of my price range at least as of now. I was really hoping for around 600. I suppose I could always buy the DP, save up some money for a few months, sell the DP, and upgrade to the Warden? I don't even know. This whole new 21" idea completely threw me off, but it would be sick to wall off in my car.

I think you're getting hung up on the whole 21" thing simply for appearances. Yes it would be cool, it would probably be fairly loud too, but spending $1000 for 2500w of power handling is kind of ridiculous(same goes for $600 for 1500w).

Larger woofers should technically reproduce lower frequencies louder than similar, but smaller subs because they have more cone area and move more air. However, you can achieve similar cone area to an 18" with two 12" woofers. Is it always better to go with more smaller subwoofers instead of less larger woofers? No, because cases like the one discussed earlier in this thread exist. Also, the more subs you buy, typically the more expensive it becomes to match cone area. I could buy one HDC3 18" for $305, or two SA-12's for $400, or three DCON 10's for $450. All of these set-ups have similar cone area, however the HDC3 is the most cone area for the money.

As discussed earlier in this thread as well, cone area is an important factor, but not the only one worth considering. xmax(excursion capability) is another thing to consider, as well as motor strength (the "Bl" value of a sub's T/S parameters). Another T/S parameter that can give you SOME indication as to the response of the woofer is the "Fs" of the woofer, or it's resonant frequency.

Just something to think about.

 

[lnsomnia]

It will since Kickers don't hit low. I would tune around 35 and let it eat. 10 cubes.

May I ask why 35hz? Just curious. I want lows like stated earlier. I'm sure it's capable of hitting some nice lows at 35, but i've tried 34hz, and now 31hz. Of course those tunings are on my CVX's and I'm sure it would sound completely different on a 21.

I guess what I'm asking is, why not 30-32hz?

Something else to think about. DD has a 21 now in the Z. I think you can get a 9500 also. That's a ground pounder.

I couldn't find a DD 21 with a quick google search. :/ I'm going to assume it's probably a bit more pricey than the DP?

Thank you SO much for your guys' help by the way.

I think you're getting hung up on the whole 21" thing simply for appearances. Yes it would be cool, it would probably be fairly loud too, but spending $1000 for 2500w of power handling is kind of ridiculous(same goes for $600 for 1500w).
Larger woofers should technically reproduce lower frequencies louder than similar, but smaller subs because they have more cone area and move more air. However, you can achieve similar cone area to an 18" with two 12" woofers. Is it always better to go with more smaller subwoofers instead of less larger woofers? No, because cases like the one discussed earlier in this thread exist. Also, the more subs you buy, typically the more expensive it becomes to match cone area. I could buy one HDC3 18" for $305, or two SA-12's for $400, or three DCON 10's for $450. All of these set-ups have similar cone area, however the HDC3 is the most cone area for the money.

As discussed earlier in this thread as well, cone area is an important factor, but not the only one worth considering. xmax(excursion capability) is another thing to consider, as well as motor strength (the "Bl" value of a sub's T/S parameters). Another T/S parameter that can give you SOME indication as to the response of the woofer is the "Fs" of the woofer, or it's resonant frequency.

Just something to think about.

I will be honest, the appearance of the inside/wall of the car means a lot to me. A 21 walled does intrigue me. I'm trying not to get all caught up in the sole aesthetics purposes of buying subwoofer(s), but a 21" sub is definitely something you don't see often and it would be very neat to own.

I completely understand that I could probably move a bit more air and get some more power with two 15's rather than a 21, but I'm still interested in the 21. It would be cool to take it to some comps anyways. Better yet, take it to the Texas Heat wave on the 27th of July if I can get the build done in time. (Which I doubt, but ye' never know.)

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I think you're getting hung up on the whole 21" thing simply for appearances. Yes it would be cool, it would probably be fairly loud too, but spending $1000 for 2500w of power handling is kind of ridiculous(same goes for $600 for 1500w).
Larger woofers should technically reproduce lower frequencies louder than similar, but smaller subs because they have more cone area and move more air. However, you can achieve similar cone area to an 18" with two 12" woofers. Is it always better to go with more smaller subwoofers instead of less larger woofers? No, because cases like the one discussed earlier in this thread exist. Also, the more subs you buy, typically the more expensive it becomes to match cone area. I could buy one HDC3 18" for $305, or two SA-12's for $400, or three DCON 10's for $450. All of these set-ups have similar cone area, however the HDC3 is the most cone area for the money.

As discussed earlier in this thread as well, cone area is an important factor, but not the only one worth considering. xmax(excursion capability) is another thing to consider, as well as motor strength (the "Bl" value of a sub's T/S parameters). Another T/S parameter that can give you SOME indication as to the response of the woofer is the "Fs" of the woofer, or it's resonant frequency.

Just something to think about.

Good point but don't get hung up on rms. that's 2500 watt sub just like mine are. Just like the SA is a 1000 watt sub. They rate to be newb proof cause they know it will get clipped to hell by them.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

May I ask why 35hz? Just curious. I want lows like stated earlier. I'm sure it's capable of hitting some nice lows at 35, but i've tried 34hz, and now 31hz. Of course those tunings are on my CVX's and I'm sure it would sound completely different on a 21.
I guess what I'm asking is, why not 30-32hz?

I couldn't find a DD 21 with a quick google search. :/ I'm going to assume it's probably a bit more pricey than the DP?

Thank you SO much for your guys' help by the way.

It's new so you won't find much. It's on thier facebook page. 35 is a good all around tune. If its built right it will still dig into the 20s strong. I'm tuned at 33 and still pull very good numbers at 26-27 hz. My subs have a much lower fs though. Tune to where the woofer is strong, use a woofer that is strong where you want to tune. You can tell by the fs but you have to know if the specs where taken pre or post break in.

 

[T.I.K. 10+ year member]

Good point but don't get hung up on rms. that's 2500 watt sub just like mine are. Just like the SA is a 1000 watt sub. They rate to be newb proof cause they know it will get clipped to hell by them.

True, those 4" coils can handle a good amount of power. Even if you could realistically put 3500w on a Warden, I could still buy two AA Mayhem 18's for the same price and have close to double the power handling and have 30% more cone area.

21" woofers just seem impractical for the most part.