Extended/Full Range vs Tweeter

[Why So Cereal? 5,000+ posts]

That will mean cutting the passenger side highs by so much, you may as well have no highs. Not to mention severely screwing up any kind of soundstage for a passenger seat rider.

 

[Jroo 10+ year member]

What I did was go to a bunch of high end home audio stores in my area and listen to full range book shelf speakers and pods. They give you a great idea of what the best case scenario would be because the are pointed directly at the listener. Many sound good, but just miss something on the very top end. When you would A/B with a traditional mid and tweeter you could hear the top end missing. It was almost like they had a dullness or ran out of steam. I would image this would get worse in a car, which is why I went to the store to hear fullrangers. To be honest, your most high end computer speakers are generally a fullrange of some type. Even the best ones just sorta miss something to me. The biggest advantage to a full range is there is no cut in the middle of vocal range and you have point source. Basically one driver can run from 500hz to 10k without a mids, tweeters, and xover points cutting into or messing up that range. You'll see many run a "supertweeter" or something that picks up from 8k to 10k up. I think the sound only become worse or more dull on the top end the further off axis your driver is. After listening I woudnt want the sound at all without a tweeter up high. For me, when a cymbal crashes i want to hear it crash not just kinda say I think I heard a cymbal. Ive been holding on to an Infinity ribbon tweeter that likes 10k up. I think a fullrange is the only real way to finally use my Infinity set because most true mids I see cant run up that high.

 

[VWBobby 10+ year member]

Some of the best HT designs use a woofer that can go from about 20hz to 5000hz and then a tweeter to blend from ~5000hz on up. They don't use a crossover so there are no losses and the speaker's natural roll off are the crossover points. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Oh, and I'm pretty sure phasing isn't an issue with this type of design.

 

[okiedokie 10+ year member]

hey whitedragon551

Have you ever thought about the founteks?.

I put a pair in my boyfriends trunk off axis low in his doors.

Yes they have a nice top end off axis.

Those Tang band fullrange need to be on axis.'

Im using mark audio 4inch widerange speakers which they do have a really nice top end on axis or off axis.

if you can fit mark audio mids in,then you can cross them down low.

any where from & up, they have a big x-max.

If you need more top end, then you can add a small tweeter & cap.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

I am. I may be grabbing a set of H-Audio/Audible Physics AP3's. Same thing as the Fountek FR88ex except the cone material is a little more rigid.

 

[Why So Cereal? 5,000+ posts]

Tweeter and cap idea x2

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

I agree you'll want a tweeter in addition to the off axis full range, it was hard to pick a favorite driver in my tests because the airspace wasn't finalized for any of the drivers, nor really ideal. My concern was high frequency reproduction and adequate output level. Both were let downs in the positions I wanted. All of the drivers tested were less than $35 each. With a larger budget I know I can feta better driver to use and maybe gain better HF response.

I run 2" full range in the wife's Camry, in stock locations - dash corners. The positions offer the best high frequency response of the off axis positions I tried, but the soundstage isn't well focused for my liking, the rest of the locations are Eclipse point source drivers without the tweeters ran. She is happy with it and some basic T/A through the 9833.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

Ive read alot of people get great results with tweeterless setups compared to tweeter setups.

What Im thinking is modifying this idea here:

Cheap, adjustable, easily replaceable tweeter pods - DIYMA.com - Scientific Car Audio - Truth in Sound Quality

And mount my full range up high in the corners of the dash board aimed at the center point between both front seats.

 

[Why So Cereal? 5,000+ posts]

Now, that, sounds smexy. You wont have to be concerned with typical mid to tweet phase shift in the vocal range either.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

that sphere idea fails when you don't have adequate airspace to play as low as you want. small full range is doable if you are on-axis and don't want a lot of volume.

airspace is crucial for midrange, as is the cavity. the last thing you want is a speaker in the middle of a sphere - backwave reflections should be directed away from the cone - not focused on it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

that sphere idea fails when you don't have adequate airspace to play as low as you want. small full range is doable if you are on-axis and don't want a lot of volume.
airspace is crucial for midrange, as is the cavity. the last thing you want is a speaker in the middle of a sphere - backwave reflections should be directed away from the cone - not focused on it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Wouldnt polyfill help correct some of the backwave issues or lining the back cap with something rigid or even use deadener?

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

Wouldnt polyfill help correct some of the backwave issues or lining the back cap with something rigid or even use deadener?

nope. you need diffusion to break up back waves - and in order to be effective, teh diffusion needs to be 1/4 wavelength. think about what that means at 500Hz. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

polyfill isn't as effective as fiberglass - i would choose the latter. even still, the effectiveness depends on the thickness which determines which frequencies are effected. most if it's effect is to convert sound energy to movement.

an egg shape has less benefit for diffusion but more benefit for backwave control.

when i build midrange eggs/spheres i'll use concentric wood rings so my inside shape is irregular. then i'll fill the outside for a smooth finish (foam/glass/clay/filler/etc.). but you'll still want to achieve a Q around .707 so you'll want to do some calcs to figure out airspace requirements.

you can vent the enclosure into the dash - but think also about what that means for tuning, response, and phase interference as that sound makes its way around the dash cavity.

lining the back of the cap with deadener will change the resonance frequency of the material used, but won't make a difference in airspace or backwave control.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

So basically the only way to put together a good sounding tweeterless setup is to do custom pillars or find a driver that is great off axis and put them in kick panels.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

What was mentioned in the thread more than once, and what seems to be misunderstood or ignored by you(whitedragon551) is beaming. Beaming makes the frequency response of a driver worse off axis past a certain frequency dependent on the diameter of the driver.

Please define/explain "beaming" - DIYMA.com - Scientific Car Audio - Truth in Sound Quality

Great off axis response depends on playing a driver below the frequency at which it begins to beam, among other things. Using 13,740/s (speed of sound in inches at sea level) / driver diameter in inches, a 2" driver begins to beam at 6,870 Hz. A 3" driver begins to beam at 4,580 Hz. I'm still trying to wrap my head around a lot of audio concepts, but hopefully this is helpful.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

What was mentioned in the thread more than once, and what seems to be misunderstood or ignored by you(whitedragon551) is beaming. Beaming makes the frequency response of a driver worse off axis past a certain frequency dependent on the diameter of the driver. Please define/explain "beaming" - DIYMA.com - Scientific Car Audio - Truth in Sound Quality

Great off axis response depends on playing a driver below the frequency at which it begins to beam, among other things. Using 13,740/s (speed of sound in inches at sea level) / driver diameter in inches, a 2" driver begins to beam at 6,870 Hz. A 3" driver begins to beam at 4,580 Hz. I'm still trying to wrap my head around a lot of audio concepts, but hopefully this is helpful.

Not misunderstood or ignored. Beaming can/will happen with anything larger than a 1/2" dome tweeter. How off axis a driver is affect this as well as material so its almost impossible to predict. It also only matters if your sitting outside the beam area. If your within the beam frequencies wont be lost to the ear. You only lose those frequencies outside the beam. Im sure in a tiny car like mine its difficult to miss the beam, but obviously not impossible.