DS18 Hooligan 12" v1

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Aren't RMS ratings usually on pink noise not sine waves? A 4k rms sine wave seems pretty ridiculous, but you get pretty close to that with a 20a outlet wired appropriately and I've seen subs take that for minutes not 30 seconds

RMS means Root Means Squared. This is a useful tool for finding the average power of a sine wave. Picture a sine wave going up and down from zero to a peak of say 100V+ and 100V-. Obviously at some points along the wave the signal is 100V or thereabouts and of course at some points towards the median the signal is next to nothing. Transpose the negative signal into the positive and shade that all in and you will see that while the signal touches 100V there's not as much power (the shaded bit) as a 100V DC signal (or square wave which would leave next to nothing unshaded).

What root means squared does is takes the absolute value of every voltage along the waveform and finds the average. Squaring a number and taking the square root is a mathematical operation to transform negative numbers positive then means is just average (the sum of all the numbers divided by the number of numbers you used). Fortunately through the magic of math we don't need to measure every voltage on the waveform but know it's .707

As an interesting side note, unless you're designing a power supply NOBODY talks about peak voltage when dealing with AC power. The RMS is true power and is pretty much implied when anybody (besides car audio marketing and the dupes they're trying to fool) in any industry discusses AC voltage, current, or power.

So if by "RMS" you mean something completely different than root means squared then, sure, I suppose 4000W RMS means something else, or even the average absolute value of the average power generated by pink noise with peaks of 6000W...... or **** it, the gullible consumers will buy it as long as we print a big enough number on the product fvck you, buy our "4000W" sub and see the games we'll play to not honor warranty when you actually send it 4000W signal on a good bass race song. Or does "4000W RMS" mean that you can hook up that sub at nominal impedance to a 4000W rated amp and probably be alright 90% of the time?

Anyway, the point is the concept of RMS to deal with AC is week one of an AC theory course and likely in the first chapter or two of any textbook on the subject. The way the industry throws it around and the uneducated consumers parrot the term without understanding it is dishonest for everybody involved and does nothing to give anybody a good expectation of what a product can or cannot do. If you're making the case that "RMS" for the purpose of speaker power rating should be an average of typical music playing you really need to define what that typical music is and if you apply the same standards of power rating to amps you're going to be in for a world of confusion and hurt feelings.

110V X 20A = 2200W

110V X 30A = 3300W

Wall socket destruction is either running coils in series, counting on 60hz impedance of their sub to keep them out of trouble, or cramming a stack of pennies in their fuse box to not open fuses if they are getting any more power than the math tells us.

Anyway, if the gold standard for whether an amp will do what it claims is the amp dyno, should be not hold loudspeakers to the same standards? Whether or not either is useful in the world of playing music aside, it's at least something that's not open to as much interpretation and makes for an easy standard for comparison.

 

[wew lad 5,000+ posts]

RMS means Root Means Squared. This is a useful tool for finding the average power of a sine wave. Picture a sine wave going up and down from zero to a peak of say 100V+ and 100V-. Obviously at some points along the wave the signal is 100V or thereabouts and of course at some points towards the median the signal is next to nothing. Transpose the negative signal into the positive and shade that all in and you will see that while the signal touches 100V there's not as much power (the shaded bit) as a 100V DC signal (or square wave which would leave next to nothing unshaded).
What root means squared does is takes the absolute value of every voltage along the waveform and finds the average. Squaring a number and taking the square root is a mathematical operation to transform negative numbers positive then means is just average (the sum of all the numbers divided by the number of numbers you used). Fortunately through the magic of math we don't need to measure every voltage on the waveform but know it's .707

As an interesting side note, unless you're designing a power supply NOBODY talks about peak voltage when dealing with AC power. The RMS is true power and is pretty much implied when anybody (besides car audio marketing and the dupes they're trying to fool) in any industry discusses AC voltage, current, or power.

So if by "RMS" you mean something completely different than root means squared then, sure, I suppose 4000W RMS means something else, or even the average absolute value of the average power generated by pink noise with peaks of 6000W...... or **** it, the gullible consumers will buy it as long as we print a big enough number on the product fvck you, buy our "4000W" sub and see the games we'll play to not honor warranty when you actually send it 4000W signal on a good bass race song. Or does "4000W RMS" mean that you can hook up that sub at nominal impedance to a 4000W rated amp and probably be alright 90% of the time?

Anyway, the point is the concept of RMS to deal with AC is week one of an AC theory course and likely in the first chapter or two of any textbook on the subject. The way the industry throws it around and the uneducated consumers parrot the term without understanding it is dishonest for everybody involved and does nothing to give anybody a good expectation of what a product can or cannot do. If you're making the case that "RMS" for the purpose of speaker power rating should be an average of typical music playing you really need to define what that typical music is and if you apply the same standards of power rating to amps you're going to be in for a world of confusion and hurt feelings.

110V X 20A = 2200W

110V X 30A = 3300W

Wall socket destruction is either running coils in series, counting on 60hz impedance of their sub to keep them out of trouble, or cramming a stack of pennies in their fuse box to not open fuses if they are getting any more power than the math tells us.

Anyway, if the gold standard for whether an amp will do what it claims is the amp dyno, should be not hold loudspeakers to the same standards? Whether or not either is useful in the world of playing music aside, it's at least something that's not open to as much interpretation and makes for an easy standard for comparison.

Okay I agree we should hold them to the same standard, but maybe what I said was a little ambiguous.

Should we be rating them on sine waves or pink noise? What should the standard be?

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Okay I agree we should hold them to the same standard, but maybe what I said was a little ambiguous.
Should we be rating them on sine waves or pink noise? What should the standard be?

Sine waves of course, because anybody who has competed a season or two in an org with a music format can list a dozen "songs" that have a bass line that is basically a solid test tone. This is the way honest companies have been rating.

I do also like the way JL rates their speakers with a color coded line graph showing safe to void warranty range of rated amp power which is an appropriate match for each product. Those ratings have always been honest and the color coding helps give people an idea of what they're doing to their speakers.

 

[marc2112 10+ year member]

Wait!!

Do they really call it the v1? So they already know it's flawed. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[wew lad 5,000+ posts]

Sine waves of course, because anybody who has competed a season or two in an org with a music format can list a dozen "songs" that have a bass line that is basically a solid test tone. This is the way honest companies have been rating.
I do also like the way JL rates their speakers with a color coded line graph showing safe to void warranty range of rated amp power which is an appropriate match for each product. Those ratings have always been honest and the color coding helps give people an idea of what they're doing to their speakers.

Fair enough, I like the idea of the chart because it gives a visual aid to those not good with numbers and it can also take into account heat build up

Sine waves for subs, if they do encounter basically a sine wave on some songs, sounds reasonable.

Now for door speakers, should this be different? pink noise noise seems more reasonable

We have to define a standard before expecting one that will work for us, I guess is my point

 

[THATpurpleKUSH 5,000+ posts]

Am I the only one that thinks those triple stacked spider packs look ridiculous? How can they even allow the coil to travel a good amount?

 

[dbjunior 10+ year member]

Am I the only one that thinks those triple stacked spider packs look ridiculous? How can they even allow the coil to travel a good amount?

Yeah id love to see real tsp's on these subs. Theres a few companys ive seen with tsp's that are not even close to what they post.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Fair enough, I like the idea of the chart because it gives a visual aid to those not good with numbers and it can also take into account heat build up
Sine waves for subs, if they do encounter basically a sine wave on some songs, sounds reasonable.

Now for door speakers, should this be different? pink noise noise seems more reasonable

We have to define a standard before expecting one that will work for us, I guess is my point

Sine waves again would be honest, though again the JL method is really handy. There is no reason to suspect there's not some program material out there that isn't close to solid sine waves in other frequency ranges.

JL Audio » header » Support » Tutorials » Subwoofer Power Chart

The idea being if you give retard proof ratings you KNOW that anything that comes back broken was done by abuse (unless you see some obvious sign of legit manufacturing defect). People who know what they're doing can try to throw more power at things but they will understand that they're on their own and it is abuse, novices can have a better idea of what is safe.... saves a lot of hard feelings later.

Naught for nothing but pushing things into thermal or mechanical compression isn't really efficient anyway, you get even worse diminishing returns for throwing more power at it. Consider how a speaker cooling works. A 3" 4 layer copper coil can typically hang with 1200W 50hz sine wave. If it'll hold that for an hour it'll do it for a month straight. When you're within the range where it can shed heat faster than you're pouring heat into it you're indestructible. Now ANYTHING above that and anything beyond the 1200W your sub can shed just piles up. To some degree the heat causes a rise in impedance which might help you a bit, but when you really start over-powering a coil it over heats really fast. So as you exceed the sine wave rating you can count on failure exponentially quicker as you scale power.

Am I the only one that thinks those triple stacked spider packs look ridiculous? How can they even allow the coil to travel a good amount?

Who knows how stiff those spiders are? Certainly the only time I've seen this on subs I'd consider good is if they're custom built for guys who do huge power and need it to survive. Really if you buy a GOOD American made spider like the ones I use or even one of the better quality Chinese pressed packs like Sundown's red one I can't even imagine why anybody would need more than 1 or 2. If those are 3 stacked because you can't get the stiffness they use in 1 or 2 those subs have to be wildly inefficient and I'm guessing with Chinese coils that something else would fail long before you needed that much suspension to keep it from breaking mechanically.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

RMS means Root Means Squared. This is a useful tool for finding the average power of a sine wave. Picture a sine wave going up and down from zero to a peak of say 100V+ and 100V-. Obviously at some points along the wave the signal is 100V or thereabouts and of course at some points towards the median the signal is next to nothing. Transpose the negative signal into the positive and shade that all in and you will see that while the signal touches 100V there's not as much power (the shaded bit) as a 100V DC signal (or square wave which would leave next to nothing unshaded).
What root means squared does is takes the absolute value of every voltage along the waveform and finds the average. Squaring a number and taking the square root is a mathematical operation to transform negative numbers positive then means is just average (the sum of all the numbers divided by the number of numbers you used). Fortunately through the magic of math we don't need to measure every voltage on the waveform but know it's .707

As an interesting side note, unless you're designing a power supply NOBODY talks about peak voltage when dealing with AC power. The RMS is true power and is pretty much implied when anybody (besides car audio marketing and the dupes they're trying to fool) in any industry discusses AC voltage, current, or power.

So if by "RMS" you mean something completely different than root means squared then, sure, I suppose 4000W RMS means something else, or even the average absolute value of the average power generated by pink noise with peaks of 6000W...... or **** it, the gullible consumers will buy it as long as we print a big enough number on the product fvck you, buy our "4000W" sub and see the games we'll play to not honor warranty when you actually send it 4000W signal on a good bass race song. Or does "4000W RMS" mean that you can hook up that sub at nominal impedance to a 4000W rated amp and probably be alright 90% of the time?

Anyway, the point is the concept of RMS to deal with AC is week one of an AC theory course and likely in the first chapter or two of any textbook on the subject. The way the industry throws it around and the uneducated consumers parrot the term without understanding it is dishonest for everybody involved and does nothing to give anybody a good expectation of what a product can or cannot do. If you're making the case that "RMS" for the purpose of speaker power rating should be an average of typical music playing you really need to define what that typical music is and if you apply the same standards of power rating to amps you're going to be in for a world of confusion and hurt feelings.

110V X 20A = 2200W

110V X 30A = 3300W

Wall socket destruction is either running coils in series, counting on 60hz impedance of their sub to keep them out of trouble, or cramming a stack of pennies in their fuse box to not open fuses if they are getting any more power than the math tells us.

Anyway, if the gold standard for whether an amp will do what it claims is the amp dyno, should be not hold loudspeakers to the same standards? Whether or not either is useful in the world of playing music aside, it's at least something that's not open to as much interpretation and makes for an easy standard for comparison.

continuous and RMS power are different. ones a MEAN AKA calculated one is measure over time at a given rate none the less outstanding and you know more than i give you.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Yeah id love to see real tsp's on these subs. Theres a few companys ive seen with tsp's that are not even close to what they post.

ill bet the QES is over 1

 

[Dub7sonoma Premium Member]

I often wondered about their products. I assume you are liking them. Quick heads up. In the pic of that 12 it looks like the spider pack/spacer is seperating. You can see the bolts running through it. Underneath it.
Looks good. What would you compare the subs to? Do the amps do rated?

I over their products. I noticed that too, but it hasnt had a problem yet. Their amps do rated power from all the times ive clamped them or seen them clamped.

 

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------

 

Got enough spiders on that thing? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

I think they are single spider packs spaced out. They werent as stiff as my hdc4s were when new.

 

[Dub7sonoma Premium Member]

How does it compare to what you had before?
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

So far ive gained a little over a db but my windshield has also come just about completely unglued from the roof, so im sure it much more than a db but i wont have proof until i replace the windshield

 

[Dub7sonoma Premium Member]

ive never heard anyone speak really kindly about ds18

Most of what youve heard is probably from people with no hands on experience. The amps ive clampled all do rated and for the price of the big pro fr amps, there isnt much that can beat it. There mids sound great and so far all the subs ive used have had no problems.

 

[Dub7sonoma Premium Member]

Questionable op standards. Prolly doesnt take much to impress him.

I was running CT Sounds when they were new. I had literally the first Mesos is Louisiana back when they were doing the buy 4 get 1 free promotions for their dealers. Its been a LONG time since CT Sounds has been in my truck. I just havent had the chance to cut new decals and change them.

 

[Dub7sonoma Premium Member]

Aren't RMS ratings usually on pink noise not sine waves? A 4k rms sine wave seems pretty ridiculous, but you get pretty close to that with a 20a outlet wired appropriately and I've seen subs take that for minutes not 30 seconds

Ill burp them clamp the amps again soon and let you know at least what they are handling on a burp

 

---------- Post added at 04:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------

 

Wait!!
Do they really call it the v1? So they already know it's flawed. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I refer to it as the v1 because they just updated them with their own baskets with the DS18 logo in them