HELP Choosing tweeters to Pair with ds18 midrange

[coopermidrange]

Hello all,

I am planning on doing a 8 speaker system off a taramps ds 4x440 watt 2ohm amplifier. They will run off a kenwood single din radio. Seemed easy enough but everything is so complicated when you decide step outside the field of walmart coaxiles. For the system, I want to hook up 4 4 ohm ds18 150 watt rms mid range speakers to the amplifier and put them each on their own channel. From their, id like to run a 4 ohm tweeter parallel to each speaker, this is where the fun starts. Firstly, if I run a 4 ohm tweeter parallel to a 4 ohm speaker, that should give me a 2 ohm load on the channel (which is good since its a 2 ohm amp). Second, each speaker will be receiving 110 watts rms. Does this mean that the tweeters also have to be 110 watts rms each? Is their any that can handle 110 watts rms and be 1 in big? I can't find any that can (all I find is ******** cheap brands that only show the peak watt of the combined pair). Also, do I need a crossover or compactor? Is a crossover a compacter? What type should I use? What do the decibel settings mean? Its all very confusing. Thanks in advance who ever is able to tackle this!

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[Jimi77 5,000+ posts]

No, running a 4 ohm tweeters "parallel" with a 4 ohm midbass will not result in a 2 ohm load. You need to use a crossover to send midrange/bass frequencies to the midbass driver and the highs to the tweeter, which will result in a 4 ohm load. You can put a speaker protector in the circuit to prevent blowing drivers.

Home

Speaker Protection Devices at Parts Express. Stocking circuit breakers, loudspeaker protection, polyswitch protection, tweeter protection lamps for crossovers.

www.parts-express.com

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

Crossovers direct different frequencies to each driver in your scenario, thus separating the amount of power distributed to them accordingly. Two 4 ohm speakers crossed at different frequencies will operate, essentially as a 4 ohm speaker. The "mids" you referring to only play, effectively from about 200 hz and are designed to be paired with a bullet type "pro" styl tweeter. That is because they are generally crossed at around 6 to 10000 hz. overall, these are designed for SPL, not overall SQ. With the configuration that you are talking about, it is not operating at 2 ohms, it's operating at 4 ohms and will not be very productive. Without substantial fill from a subwoofer they will be loud but fairly anemic and lacking in frequency bandwidth/range..

For the money, I would go with this instead.

Amazon product ASIN B0BZ4JS2Y1
It's 4x125, 4 ohms 185 x2 at 4 ohms bridged and is more stable under voltage fluctuations that the Taramps.

 

[djdilliodon!]

Front channels use for the tweeters, 2 per channel give a 2 ohm load. Rear channels the mids 2 per channel 2 ohm load. You will need to use xovers. Easiest way is to use passives. I’ve done this exact setup using different speakers and a taramps 1200x4. Pic below of how I did the passive xovers.

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

You can do it that way too. 100 watts to all 4, and that's a good way too, just don't want to confuse the transitioning from Wal-Mart coaxial guy!

 

[coopermidrange]

Crossovers direct different frequencies to each driver in your scenario, thus separating the amount of power distributed to them accordingly. Two 4 ohm speakers crossed at different frequencies will operate, essentially as a 4 ohm speaker. The "mids" you referring to only play, effectively from about 200 hz and are designed to be paired with a bullet type "pro" styl driver such as the DS18 6" or 8" mids. That is because they are generally crossed at around 6 to 10000 hz. overall, these are designed for SPL, not overall SQ. With the configuration that you are talking about, it is not operating at 2 ohms, it's operating at 4 ohms and will not be very productive. Without substantial fill from a subwoofer they will be loud but fairly anemic and lacking in frequency bandwidth/range..

For the money, I would go with this instead.

Amazon product ASIN B0BZ4JS2Y1
It's 4x125, 4 ohms 185 x2 at 4 ohms bridged and is more stable under voltage fluctuations that the Taramps.

Pair that with a set of these (bridged at 4 ohms per side to the amp) or use the taramps bridged at 4 ohms:

Pioneer TS-Z65C 6.5" Component Speaker System 300 Watts Max RB | eBay

1-1/8" aluminum tweeter. 6-1/2" Twaron fiber woofer with butyl rubber surround. Tweeter Composition Aluminum. Woofer Composition Twaron. Woofer Surround ---. handles up to 100 watts RMS (300 watts peak power).

www.ebay.com

These are about $150 off the normal price and they already contain the crossovers, tweeters and the midbass drivers to complete the front stage setup that you are looking to do. They will blow away any walmart coaxials for sure.

Thank you so much. Very helpful! Just a quick follow up. Those pioneers would be great, unfortunately I only have room for 5.25" speakers. I will be paring this system with a single 12" in the trunk with its own amp and channel, so that should cover the lows. I listen to alot of bass heavy songs like rap, and I just can't put up with speakers that go below 100hz, they just **** at rap, you can't play that loud even with the bass turned all the way down, as the bass just distorts them at relatively low volume. If you try to up the hurts they just end up beaming. Anyway, the main question is, would it sound really loud and good if I go with the ds18 5.25 mid ranges, a tweeter parallel with a crossover to each, and a 12" in the trunk.
I would go with the amp you recommend, seems like a much better option.

Amp:
Amazon product ASIN B0BZ4JS2Y1
Speakers:
Amazon product ASIN B01M8M89K7
Tweeters and crossovers: (Not sure what to use yet)

An alternate option would be to just buy two sets of these:
Amazon product ASIN B00N84TRRW
If I decide to go with these, do you think they would sound ok for bass heavy music (with a sub) and not distort. Also, what amp would you recommend for those?

Many Thanks!

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

In my experience, most people don't have real knowledge of PA or pro-sound drivers and are often disappointed with the sound they make when they install them. You really should have first hand experience utilizing them and they are likely to sound much worse when not implemented correctly in a proper SPL system. Matching any drivers but in my opinion, SPL pro style drivers, can be tricky for experienced users let alone those with limited exposure to their characteristics. Additionally, they pair best with like type tweeters, bullet style PA/horn style (as they can keep up with the output of those type of mids) and that can be problematic when considering your mounting options as they are more difficult to place given their physical size (average depth is usually .25" to 1.5" greater than the average silk/alloy done). Pretty common crossover point for these types are 6000-10000 Hz, deigned for SPL, not accuracy. As stated previously, the 200 hz crossover point of the mid leaves a lot of the midbass out the picture and requires that you add a 3rd mid-woofer in the mix or that your subwoofer plays up to that point which is not desirable or always attainable, sub/sub amp dependant. I don't know anyone that would say that you will be fine listening to this setup until you have a subwoofer in place, just not a good sound. It would be fairly found, just not full/complete.

That in mind, the amp listed is a good choice for running the NVX comps all around (I have an open box set, $60 shipped) if you are interested. I usually don't interject sales opportunities in my replies but since you asked, they are pretty decent drivers. They come with everything you need (except grills) and are hard to beat for the $$.

Recoil also makes pretty decent budget comps. They would be my option after the NVX'

Amazon product ASIN B08DNJDR6K
What car is this going in and what budget have you set aside or are you planning to use for the subwoofer setup?

 

[coopermidrange]

In my experience, most people don't have real knowledge of PA or pro-sound drivers and are often disappointed with the sound they make when they install them. You really should have first hand experience utilizing them and they are likely to sound much worse when not implemented correctly in a proper SPL system. Matching any drivers but in my opinion, SPL pro style drivers, can be tricky for experienced users let alone those with limited exposure to their characteristics. Additionally, they pair best with like type tweeters, bullet style PA/horn style (as they can keep up with the output of those type of mids) and that can be problematic when considering your mounting options as they are more difficult to place given their physical size (average depth is usually .25" to 1.5" greater than the average silk/alloy done). Pretty common crossover point for these types are 6000-10000 Hz, deigned for SPL, not accuracy. As stated previously, the 200 hz crossover point of the mid leaves a lot of the midbass out the picture and requires that you add a 3rd mid-woofer in the mix or that your subwoofer plays up to that point which is not desirable or always attainable, sub/sub amp dependant. I don't know anyone that would say that you will be fine listening to this setup until you have a subwoofer in place, just not a good sound. It would be fairly found, just not full/complete.

That in mind, the amp listed is a good choice for running the NVX comps all around (I have an open box set, $60 shipped) if you are interested. I usually don't interject sales opportunities in my replies but since you asked, they are pretty decent drivers. They come with everything you need (except grills) and are hard to beat for the $$.

Recoil also makes pretty decent budget comps. They would be my option after the NVX'

Amazon product ASIN B08DNJDR6K
What car is this going in and what budget have you set aside or are you planning to use for the subwoofer setup?

This system is for a 1995 BMW 540i (e34). The car originally had 4 5.25" mid bass, 2 2.5" mid range, and 4 1" tweeters hooked to a built in amp. I took everything out (wasn't working anymore). My plan is to replace the 4 mid bass with mid ranges, replace the 4 tweeters, drop a sub in the trunk, and forget the 2 2.5" dash speakers. For the speakers, id like to keep it below $200 for all 4 with tweeters. I would up it to $300 if I can use ds18's and get separate tweeters. Speaker amp $100. Subwoofer with enclosure $200. Subwoofer amp under $200. My budget for everything is $500-$800. I all ready have all the wiring and head unite.

 

[coopermidrange]

Front channels use for the tweeters, 2 per channel give a 2 ohm load. Rear channels the mids 2 per channel 2 ohm load. You will need to use xovers. Easiest way is to use passives. I’ve done this exact setup using different speakers and a taramps 1200x4. Pic below of how I did the passive xovers.

I like this idea. If I did this with a taramps ds 4x440, would this mean each speaker would receive 55 watts rms? Also, if the tweeters are on different channels, could I just filter the frequency's on the head unite instead of a crossover? What tweeters would you recommend, ds18 ones?

 

[djdilliodon!]

I like this idea. If I did this with a taramps ds 4x440, would this mean each speaker would receive 55 watts rms? Also, if the tweeters are on different channels, could I just filter the frequency's on the head unite instead of a crossover? What tweeters would you recommend, ds18 ones?

That is correct, at 2 ohms each speaker would be getting 55 watts each. If the crossover on the head unit is a high pass xover that is able to be set at the frequency needed at the proper slope, then you can do that.

As far as what speakers to go with, this depends on how they will be installed, and the Type of sound you are looking for. If just slapping them in the doors you need to know what the max depth is and if running IB, pro audio drivers will sound like crappy bull horns installed this way . In my experience they perform best when in an enclosure.

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

Correction, that should read at 4 ohms each speaker would get around 63 watts.

Operation Class	Class D
Number of channels	4
Maximum power	@ 13,8 VDC - 2 OHMS - 400 W RMS (4 x 100W RMS) @ 13,8 VDC - 4 OHMS - 252 W RMS (4 x 63W RMS) Bridged @ 13,8 VDC - 4 OHMS - 400W RMS (2 x 200W RMS)
Signal to noise ratio	>90dB
Input Sensitivity	200mV (Vol = max.)
Frequency response	(Full Range): 18 Hz to 30 kHz (-1dB)
Crossover high pass (HPF)	90 Hz (-12dB/8th)
Crossover low pass (LPF)	90 Hz (-12dB/8th)
Efficiency	79%
Input impedance	22K Ohms
Output impedance	2 Ohms
Protection system	Output short circuit, low / high voltage protection and thermal protection
Min. supply voltage	9 VDC
Maximum power supply voltage	16 VDC
Consumption at rest	0.8 A
Maximum music comsumption	16.5 A
Maximum consumption in sinusoidal signal	33 A
Dimensions (HxWxD)	5.43" x 1.92" x 4.76" |13,8cm x 4,9cm x 12,1cm

 

[coopermidrange]

Correction, that should read at 4 ohms each speaker would get around 63 watts.

Operation Class	Class D
Number of channels	4
Maximum power	@ 13,8 VDC - 2 OHMS - 400 W RMS (4 x 100W RMS) @ 13,8 VDC - 4 OHMS - 252 W RMS (4 x 63W RMS) Bridged @ 13,8 VDC - 4 OHMS - 400W RMS (2 x 200W RMS)
Signal to noise ratio	>90dB
Input Sensitivity	200mV (Vol = max.)
Frequency response	(Full Range): 18 Hz to 30 kHz (-1dB)
Crossover high pass (HPF)	90 Hz (-12dB/8th)
Crossover low pass (LPF)	90 Hz (-12dB/8th)
Efficiency	79%
Input impedance	22K Ohms
Output impedance	2 Ohms
Protection system	Output short circuit, low / high voltage protection and thermal protection
Min. supply voltage	9 VDC
Maximum power supply voltage	16 VDC
Consumption at rest	0.8 A
Maximum music comsumption	16.5 A
Maximum consumption in sinusoidal signal	33 A
Dimensions (HxWxD)	5.43" x 1.92" x 4.76" |13,8cm x 4,9cm x 12,1cm

Which amp is this? Taramps?

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

Whoops, yes, that is correct. The recoil is going to give you 125 watts to four, 4 ohm speakers. (one 6.5" w/tweeter is considered one speaker/channel) So, if you have a set front and rear, then each corner gets 125 watts.

If you split the channels to mids and tweets as suggested by Djd, each driver, one 6.5 and one tweet each will get the full 125 watts. That takes up all 4 channels to just the front stage, not front and back. This is fine but if you want to do this with all four corners you'll need two 4 channel or one 8 channel amp.

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

Honestly, not sure what the infatuation is with the DS18 ir any "pro" style mids. With your budget and the prospect of sourcing a n aftermarket crossover at each corner and separates too, not a great idea. Get the Rcoil or the NVX, spekaers front and back, sdone, Great sound reproduction across the board to replace the other system.

For the sub, you'll need a OFC copper 4 gauge wiring kit:

Amazon product ASIN B0C8V972Z7
fused distro block:

Amazon product ASIN B097T5T1TB
This amp to go o with the Recoil four channel $115.99:

Amazon product ASIN B0BMVXC6HZ
A decent 10" sub w/dual 2 ohms VCs - $119.99:

Amazon product ASIN B00OO3JVZY
An enclosure:

• Optimal sealed box volume .70 cubic feet $63.99

Amazon product ASIN B00NG38MVW
-- OR --

• Optimal ported box volume: 1.50 cubic feet $79.99

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BN9DR7VZ/?tag=caraudiocom-20

How we doing so far?

 

[coopermidrange]

Honestly, not sure what the infatuation is with the DS18 ir any "pro" style mids. With your budget and the prospect of sourcing a n aftermarket crossover at each corner and separates too, not a great idea. Get the Rcoil or the NVX, spekaers front and back, sdone, Great sound reproduction across the board to replace the other system.

For the sub, you'll need a OFC copper 4 gauge wiring kit:

Amazon product ASIN B0C8V972Z7
fused distro block:

Amazon product ASIN B097T5T1TB
This amp to go o with the Recoil four channel $115.99:

Amazon product ASIN B0BMVXC6HZ
A decent 10" sub w/dual 2 ohms VCs - $119.99:

Amazon product ASIN B00OO3JVZY
An enclosure:

• Optimal sealed box volume .70 cubic feet $63.99

Amazon product ASIN B00NG38MVW
-- OR --

• Optimal ported box volume: 1.50 cubic feet $79.99

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BN9DR7VZ/?tag=caraudiocom-20

How we doing so far?

I agree with you, seems like the way to go. The obsession with pro style mids is from frustration of not being able to play bass heavy songs through the speakers loudly and having speakers that play unneeded bass when I have subwoofers allready. My car can only fit 5.25" speakers, not 6.5." NVX makes 5.25" so I should be good. I think the list you made is great. I do, however will probably be going with a prefab sub just because its easier and a little cheaper. Also, what amp would you recommend for these nvx's (attached below), the recoil dI800.4? They say 125 watts rms per side, but that means speaker and tweeter, the tweeter is 20 watts rms so if im not mistaken that means the speaker is 100 watts rms. Might be lower though, these brands seem to be good at finding a way to label the highest rms possible. Also dumb question, but do the crossovers that come with those speakers and tweeters allready do everything, just plug and play, or do I still need to filter the frequency from the amp?

VSP525KIT 750W Peak (250W RMS) 5.25" V-Series 2-Way Component Speakers with 25mm Silk Dome Tweeters

Product Details: 5-1/4" NVX V-Series 2-way Component System Car Speakers Power Handling: Peak: 750 watts per set / 375 watts on each side RMS: 250 watts per set / 125 watts on each side Polypropylene cone material Nitrile Butadiene Rubber NBR speaker surround 1" Silk Dome Tweeters CEA-2031...

nvx.com

What are you thoughts on these subs? They both have the same rms just ones 10" and the other 12". Id pair it with the 700 watt amp you recommended.

TROPO-1X12D2 // Single 12” 1300-Watt Loaded Tropo Series Ported Car Subwoofer Box

The CT Sounds TROPO-1X12D2 is a loaded single 12” ported car subwoofer box that comes with our TROPO-12-D2 1300-watt max power 12-inch car subwoofer pre-installed and pre-wired internally to a 1-ohm final impedance.

www.ctsounds.com

TROPO-1X12D2 // Single 12” 1300-Watt Loaded Tropo Series Ported Car Subwoofer Box

The CT Sounds TROPO-1X12D2 is a loaded single 12” ported car subwoofer box that comes with our TROPO-12-D2 1300-watt max power 12-inch car subwoofer pre-installed and pre-wired internally to a 1-ohm final impedance.

www.ctsounds.com

Thanks again for taking the time to address these questions.