dimming lights

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by chris229 help me--------------------------------------------------------------- I can't get through to you people----------------------------

Help me... I can't get through to a closed mind... Which yours is.

Originally posted by chris229 A CAP WILL NOT BECOME A LOAD UNTILL THE ALTERNATOR VOLTAGE IS HIGHER THAN THE CAPS

And then it is a load... Follow yet? No? Let me spell it out for you Chris, because it's apparent you cannot grasp it.

Hi, I am a capacitor. I store an electrical charge.

Due to common laws of electricity, I'll discharge my charge when the source line goes to a lower voltage than what I am.

Due to common laws of electricity, I'll charge when the source line goes to a higher voltage.

What does that make me when the line source goes higher than what I am at? It's called me becoming an electrical load.

Apparently you can't quite catch that yet.

There is always a load present, and that alternator can be maxed out and still put out 14.4V, this is not cut and dry like you would like to think. Your view of the automotive charging system is completely off base. When it dips beyond what it is capable of, then starts to bring it back to 14.4, that does not imply the load is gone, because it isn't. It is still around, just less. It still has to supply enough power to skin the battery back to 14.4, and then supply enough to bring the capacitor back to 14.4, and still keep every accessory happy with their demands also.

Originally posted by chris229 THIS MEANS------------- IT WILL NOT BECOME A LOAD UNTIL THE SYSTEMS LOAD IS REMOVED FROM THE ALTERNATOR my god man--------they use caps everywhere-------- for this purpose------matter of fact in your computer right NOW yes----------storage------------which they RELEASE on a higher load tothe charging system

Sigh.. Chris, it will become a load. Do you think that the load just 'vanishes' from the system? Give me a break... There is a constant draw on that alternator the minute the vehicle is started. Do you seriously think it goes from demand to rest? Your demonstration is completely flawed by suggesting the usage by a bridge rectifier off an AC line, because the cap doesn't reserve anything, it stabalizes. It is constantly discharging in that particular circuit. Ever heard of DC ripple? Bingo.

I'm certified to repair more equipment than you can shake a stick at. I'm an electrical and mechanical maintenance engineer and **** good at it. I know more about internal circuitry of more machines than you could possibly begin to imagine, and I go beyond designing them, I actually know how to troubleshoot them. I highly suggest you do not try and talk to me like some schoolyard fool. Talk to me like a fool again Chris, I'll get you in even deeper than you are right now.

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine Gee chris, what happens when your lights dim? Ohh yes... I forgot... The reference voltage drops. Sooooo.. caps = a load.

this has nothing to do with a caps--------------it is the result of the load becoming too big for the charging system

Yes they are, you just stated as such in the aforementioned portion of your post, where I just pointed it out to you.

they are not loads in that sense

Umm.. that is called DC voltage, a capacitor cannot pass AC, that is what happens when you pass AC via a bridge rectifier and usually an isolation transformer.

really that is a DC voltage with a AC component. CAP pass ac------ you need to look that up---------if they couldn't then they wouldn't be good for this purpose

Anything that demands a draw from the system is a load... Period.

it not that simple

I have, how about you?

I'm not sure where you've learned some of these ideas but ------you didn't get them from anything outside ---caraudio

Don't make me get out richard clarks mapping of a vehicle charging system with and without a capacitor in it... You won't like it.

PLEASE--------PLEASE-------PLEASE----do ------through it in my face-------OHHH please
and just like everyone else who tries to put up a picture of RC's test------------------- ADD THE TEXT WITH IT

please--------do

I love this part

just a hint----------I too could post any graph and say it means this and that-------- but if I were smart I'd read ALL the text that came with it first

If I was im sorry--------------- but what am I supposed to do when people challage me on everything????-------------as I am right you know

WHat should I just say i'm wrong-----when i'm not?

i'm starting to think----------- my help isn't wanted around here again

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine
Hi, I am a capacitor. I store an electrical charge.

Due to common laws of electricity, I'll discharge my charge when the source line goes to a lower voltage than what I am.

Due to common laws of electricity, I'll charge when the source line goes to a higher voltage.

What does that make me when the line source goes higher than what I am at? It's called me becoming an electrical load.

Apparently you can't quite catch that yet.

yup--but only for a split second then it isn't------------ on the order of 1/30,000 of a second

Sigh.. Chris, it will become a load. Do you think that the load just 'vanishes' from the system? Give me a break... There is a constant draw on that alternator the minute the vehicle is started. Do you seriously think it goes from demand to rest? Your demonstration is completely flawed by suggesting the usage by a bridge rectifier off an AC line, because the cap doesn't reserve anything, it stabalizes. It is constantly discharging in that particular circuit.

yes--------yes----------yes------ same thing--- why would you think it is different[
no such thing as DC ripple

I'm certified to repair more equipment than you can shake a stick at. I'm an electrical and mechanical maintenance engineer and **** good at it. I know more about internal circuitry of more machines than you could possibly begin to imagine, and I go beyond designing them, I actually know how to troubleshoot them. I highly suggest you do not try and talk to me like some schoolyard fool. Talk to me like a fool again Chris, I'll get you in even deeper than you are right now. [/b]

--------repairs---- knowledge---- haven't seen any yet-------DC ripple-----caps not passing AC
I'd say your bulsh*ting as you'd have to know those facts to do what YOUR saying you do

please do "GET DEEPER" i'm swiming just fine

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by chris229  

If I was im sorry--------------- but what am I supposed to do when people challage me on everything????-------------as I am right you know

 

WHat should I just say i'm wrong-----when i'm not?

 

i'm starting to think----------- my help isn't wanted around here again

Yes, you are right, caps pass AC, apparently I had something else on my mind at the time, most likely my irritation at your displayed arrogance.

Not that your help isn't wanted, it's that your blithering arrogance isn't appreciated, nor tolerated. And I assure you I don't need to learn from you, I have done all the learning on this subject I need long ago.

It is as simple as this Chris.

Cap ends up being a load on the system when voltage returns to operational level and capacitor is not.

Cap = load. Period.

It is as simple as that. I don't care what device you hook up to this system, if it demands a current from the system, it's a load. You cannot argue this, because if you try, you are lying to yourself. Go back and re-read ohms law.

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by chris229 yup--but only for a split second then it isn't------------ on the order of 1/30,000 of a second yes--------yes----------yes------ same thing--- why would you think it is different[

 

no such thing as DC ripple --------repairs---- knowledge---- haven't seen any yet-------DC ripple-----caps not passing AC

 

I'd say your bulsh*ting as you'd have to know those facts to do what YOUR saying you do

 

please do "GET DEEPER" i'm swiming just fine

We call it DC ripple simply because it's the DC component fluxuating due to the current draw sonny, it's an AC component on the waveform but it modulates the DC factor that the system is looking for. Catching my drift yet, or is that too confusing for you?

Still looking? Keep it coming, I'm loving your attitude, this is fun for me. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine Yes, you are right, caps pass AC, apparently I had something else on my mind at the time, most likely my irritation at your displayed arrogance.

 

Not that your help isn't wanted, it's that your blithering arrogance isn't appreciated, nor tolerated. And I assure you I don't need to learn from you, I have done all the learning on this subject I need long ago.

 

It is as simple as this Chris.

 

Cap ends up being a load on the system when voltage returns to operational level and capacitor is not.

Cap = load. Period.

It is as simple as that. I don't care what device you hook up to this system, if it demands a current from the system, it's a load. You cannot argue this, because if you try, you are lying to yourself. Go back and re-read ohms law.

but it not a load during the same period as the REAL Loads and only for a split second-------- plus it helps with the REAL load
if it were a load to the charging system -----it would show on a scope

RC and DAVE have many tests that show that it ----------------- raises the average voltage

not somthing a LOAD would do

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Just because I'm tired of wasting my keystrokes on chris... I'll bring up some posts by others...

Richard Clark:

in some cases a good cap can add some measure of stability to the 12volt electrical system------but in most cases it will do little or nothing to help----and thats if you have a good one!!!!!-------if your car doesn't exhibit voltage fluctuations that cause problems you probably don't need one BUT IT COULD NOT HURT TO USE IT IF YOU ALREADY HAVE IT.........RC

Wow... Little or nothing chris, do you wonder why?

As found here:

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=019670#000000

We'll keep going, by the same person, because I know you preach his word like it's the good book...

The great "capacitor tutorial" thread from Carsound, spawned from a hot argument in another.

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20010126-1-000307.html

More hogwash on cap 'truisms'

As from Richard Clark:

ah!!!!----"the rule that sold a million caps"-----about ten years ago in an A2000 seminar someone asked me how big should a cap be for a given size system-----i responded----"in actual testing I had never been able to produce any useful voltage stabilizing results from a amp/cap combo that was less than a farad per killowatt"-------now it is important to consider that was back when the only caps in the market were of the low ESR/ESL variety and virtually all amps were class A/B---------the comment was also published in the tech briefs and was taken and relayed a million times and became a "rule"------of course those that repeat it have no idea where it came from and obviously have not considered the type of caps sold today or the efficiencies of the newer class D amps-----and they also don't realize that i was unable to ever measure any results form a cap less than one farad under any conditions-------thats why the comment stated "one farad"..............RC

Read here:

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=008157#000002

More can follow for those that are tired of listening to Chris talk to you like you are stupid...

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Forgot to add!

Now the information chris is dying for...

Tutorial 8 from the thread I just posted...

Link here for those that don't know which one I am talking about...

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20010126-1-000307-3.html

The dummy load test... Same portion...

Now more factual tests...

Please do note with the Audio Precision tests from Mr. Lewis that the yellow has the capacitor in the system.... Odd how it's referencing a lower voltage when it's trying to charge back up again... Or is it...

I think that should be more than sufficient Chris, wouldn't you?

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine
Richard Clark:

Wow... Little or nothing chris, do you wonder why?

As found here:

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=019670#000000

guess i'll e-mail him----so that gets cleared

We'll keep going, by the same person, because I know you preach his word like it's the good book...

The great "capacitor tutorial" thread from Carsound, spawned from a hot argument in another.

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20010126-1-000307.html

THAT ISN'T a cap tutorial----------you should really read it first

More hogwash on cap 'truisms'

As from Richard Clark:

Read here:

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=008157#000002

text is in referance to WHY 1F/1000watts and WHY low ESR

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Cleared, do you think he said that without reason? Lets get real chris.

That thread was spawned from a very heated capacitor debate that mysteriously 'vanished', and for crying out loud chris, how dense are you? What do you think they are talking about when discussing ESR/ESL? Batteries?!? Of course the subject matter is capacitors!

You send out all the little e-mails you like, but the subject matter at hand has not wavered.

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine Forgot to add!

 

 

Now the information chris is dying for...

 

Tutorial 8 from the thread I just posted...

 

Link here for those that don't know which one I am talking about...

 

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20010126-1-000307-3.html

 

The dummy load test... Same portion...

 

Now more factual tests...

 

-------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please do note with the Audio Precision tests from Mr. Lewis that the yellow has the capacitor in the system.... Odd how it's referencing a lower voltage when it's trying to charge back up again... Or is it...

 

I think that should be more than sufficient Chris, wouldn't you?

ha--ha -ha -ha

you really used it:crazy: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif :crazy: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

DO you realize that WHOLE thread and the graphs are to show the how USELESS high ESR caps are????

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

see what happens when you post random--graphs claiming anything you want

you should really READ what your posting as tests

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by chris229 ha--ha -ha -ha

 

you really used it:crazy: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif :crazy: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

 

DO you realize that WHOLE thread and the graphs are to show the how USELESS high ESR caps are????

 

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

ha--ha--ha... you really missed it... I'm well aware of what the subject matter is about Chris, I was there and read it back when the thread was first created.

Do you realize how many people go out and get "low" ESR caps? In fact, name more than 5 that rate well... I can think of two pretty good ones, but I can't think of anyone running them right off the top of my head... In fact, go out and buy one.. Right now, off a stores shelf... See if you can find it labeled or not.. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Then look around at the people running the alumapro "CAP"

Not catching on yet are you...

None so blind as those that refuse to see...

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by chris229 see what happens when you post random--graphs claiming anything you want

 

you should really READ what your posting as tests

Since you added more to it oh wise one... I'll add more..

Everything has been read, it's quite pertinent to the subject matter at hand, or did that just pass you by...

Nice try though buddy, you won't slow me down...

I've enjoyed this enough, I'm getting almost too much enjoyment out of it... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Keep it goin chris, I'm sure you can blindside someone in your meanderings...

Like I said, there is only one source for 14.4V power...

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine ha--ha--ha... you really missed it... I'm well aware of what the subject matter is about Chris, I read it back when the thread was created.

then why post them links-------they have nothing to do with what we are talking about???

Do you realize how many people go out and get "low" ESR caps? In fact, name more than 5 that rate well...

what----i'm lost
aren't we talking about if caps are loads----work or not?

not talking about what people buy---------of course you have to buy one that works in a high current application

we can only argue about 1 thing at a time

Then look around at the people running the alumapro "CAP"

Not catching on yet are you...

None so blind as those that refuse to see...

now you did loose me there----what about the people runing the alumapro cap?

it's useless------------is that what you mean?

what was the point of this post? no for real? thought were talking about caps that work

now you talking about ones that don't----you lost me

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

One last re-excerpt from RC's post for chris, that is ESR independant, because he seems hung up on it...

in actual testing I had never been able to produce any useful voltage stabilizing results from a amp/cap combo that was less than a farad per killowatt"-------now it is important to consider that was back when the only caps in the market were of the low ESR/ESL variety and virtually all amps were class A/B---------the comment was also published in the tech briefs and was taken and relayed a million times and became a "rule"------of course those that repeat it have no idea where it came from and obviously have not considered the type of caps sold today or the efficiencies of the newer class D amps

Things to note:

* Nothing useful for under 1 farad per kW

* Caps then were rather expensive, and were built correctly. Not so the case these days.. There is a reason they are so cheap.

* Class D current draw has helped nearly eliminate this problem since we aren't using a/b hybrids for subwoofer amplifiers much anymore. Lower current demand rules.