Bonified, Certified High Quality Amps

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

If you believe that there are distinct differences between the sound of amplifiers then you know very little about car audio. Your system is probably very nice I'm sure but your knowledge of car audio particularly amplifiers is lacking. There are probably 95% of people on this forum who will tell you that the differences between THD percentages between the so-called high quality audisons or tru amplifiers and the Sundown, RD, RF, etc are not audible and yet you are still babbling. You have a car amplifier technician who has repaired, viewed the internals of many amps, listened to many amps that he has repaired and yet you still babble. Here is what you do, go to several car audio shops listen to many amplifiers and speakers on the displays and let us know if you hear audible differences between them. The differences are in the processing, speakers, head units but not amplifiers. All they do is amplify the signal of the sound coming from the head units. Nothing more nothing less.

I know enough to design and build my own drivers and systems but I can't distinguish the subtle differences in the presentation of some amplifiers? Okay.

Stop telling me, and others, there are no differences to be heard or I'm fooling myself into hearing them because I feel stupid for paying too much, you're being presumptuous and you sound stupid doing it. You have no idea what equipment I run, how much I payed for it, or how well I utilize it. I don't go to shops to audition equipment. Those places are full of salesmen and they don't carry the drivers that I use so what good would that do me?

You and Macklessdaddy are the only ones babbling. If you want to state that you can't tell any difference that's one thing, telling others that they can't is an imposition.

 

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

I know enough to design and build my own drivers and systems but I can't distinguish the subtle differences in the presentation of some amplifiers? Okay.
Stop telling me, and others, there are no differences to be heard or I'm fooling myself into hearing them because I feel stupid for paying too much, you're being presumptuous and you sound stupid doing it. You have no idea what equipment I run, how much I payed for it, or how well I utilize it. I don't go to shops to audition equipment. Those places are full of salesmen and they don't carry the drivers that I use so what good would that do me?

You and Macklessdaddy are the only ones babbling. If you want to state that you can't tell any difference that's one thing, telling others that they can't is an imposition.

Myself and Macklessdaddy are smart enough to know the difference and not waste our money on the high end brands believing that the sound quality is that much better. I would rather get a excellent quality brand like RF, Sundown Audio, Atomic, Cadence, etc with the excellent sound quality, keep the same amp for several years, save $10,000 and more in my bank account and spend my money wisely. If you need to justify having zapco or some other high end brand in your car thats your call. I do not care. It's your money. Do me a favor send your picture and biography to the executives at Tru, Brax, Audison, etc and other high end companies so they can sell you their products at ridicously high prices. They will say to themselves "a sucker is born every minute" LOL.

 

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

Countless others have also stated on this thread also that all the amplifiers sound the same. Take the Richard Clark challenge and win the money and then spend it on some more Zapco, Tru, Brax, Audison and other high end amps. LOL

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Myself and Macklessdaddy are smart enough to know the difference and not waste our money on the high end brands believing that the sound quality is that much better. I would rather get a excellent quality brand like RF, Sundown Audio, Atomic, Cadence, etc with the excellent sound quality, keep the same amp for several years, save $10,000 and more in my bank account and spend my money wisely. If you need to justify having zapco or some other high end brand in your car thats your call. I do not care. It's your money. Do me a favor send your picture and biography to the executives at Tru, Brax, Audison, etc and other high end companies so they can sell you their products at ridicously high prices. They will say to themselves "a sucker is born every minute" LOL.

Wow, when you write in big letters you almost sound smarter.

Now do me a favor, use those big letters and start a correspondence with Nelson Pass describing to him why all of his efforts have been futile because every one of his amplifiers sounds exactly the same.

I have amplifiers that range from very cheap to very expensive and I can tell you the dollar amount does not guarantee anything. I have some Sonys that absolutely outperform my Zapcos, yet they are rated for the same power and they cost much less. I've heard a Genesis sound incredible and I've heard it sound horrible. I don't care about dollar amount or prestige, I'm a frugal person. I'm not arguing about dollar amount or brand name. I'm not justifying anything with regards to what I own so you need not bring it up again.

Let me ask you this; have you ever heard a Manger driver or a pair of Quads? How about a full range ribbon? I realize they are not car audio offerings. I chose these drivers because they're all very different with respect to how they present a load to the amplifier but they're all extremely high resolution drivers with a high degree of coherency. These drivers will tell you almost instantaneously the subtle character differences of an amplifier. I know this first hand but I'll never convince you of that, just like you'll never convince me that they all sound the same.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Sorry, I almost forgot to include an LOL.

 

[FJF 10+ year member]

Wow, when you write in big letters you almost sound smarter.
Now do me a favor, use those big letters and start a correspondence with Nelson Pass describing to him why all of his efforts have been futile because every one of his amplifiers sounds exactly the same.

I have amplifiers that range from very cheap to very expensive and I can tell you the dollar amount does not guarantee anything. I have some Sonys that absolutely outperform my Zapcos, yet they are rated for the same power and they cost much less. I've heard a Genesis sound incredible and I've heard it sound horrible. I don't care about dollar amount or prestige, I'm a frugal person. I'm not arguing about dollar amount or brand name. I'm not justifying anything with regards to what I own so you need not bring it up again.

Let me ask you this; have you ever heard a Manger driver or a pair of Quads? How about a full range ribbon? I realize they are not car audio offerings. I chose these drivers because they're all very different with respect to how they present a load to the amplifier but they're all extremely high resolution drivers with a high degree of coherency. These drivers will tell you almost instantaneously the subtle character differences of an amplifier. I know this first hand but I'll never convince you of that, just like you'll never convince me that they all sound the same.

You're a better man than I. Most of the time, I don't even read similar threads - too frustrating. I have no idea why one would assume that his aural acuity - or its lack thereof - stands as a benchmark for all others. Ultimately, there's nothing to be gained from the discourse.

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

Man I didn't mean to start a flame-fest here. Look. Some amplifiers sound different, but they are very different on the inside.

But you guys here are talking about stuff that is designed for SQ to start with. And how drivers load amplifiers differently and blah blah. Dude that stuff is not applicable to every day car audio gear. It's junk you buy in a store, not some shit you build in a lab and then optimize in a specific listening environment... you are asking people who put things together to design things and/or know how to do both at the same time. That's not car audio.

The amps I work on (which isn't ALL brands, but most availible) are 99% the same on the inside. This is a fact and saying they will sound different because of the speaker wire used, or what brand of capacitors and other small parts is ridiculous. The average human ear will tell no difference. And yes, special drivers with higher resolution focused in different areas of the spectrum would be required to "map" out the differences... a freaking lab experiment, is not a car in the driveway man.... If you have an exceptional ear, then good for you. I admittedly don't. If you have a spectrum analyzer, then also good for you. But we are talking average car audio gear here. I think the OP was asking what are the highest quality amps out there. If you bring up home stereo, PA or whatever non-12V-car-audio gear into this you are not on topic. If you bring up exotic, or experimental designs you are also not necessarily on topic. Tell the guy what brands to go buy if he wants what you consider to be high-quality. If it's not 12V car gear then get out, I don't think he wants a mains amp in his car. Would be awkward driving around with an extension cord....

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Well put dB-r.

I just wanted to be clear on the point that I truly meant no disrespect toward you when I commented that "a man who repairs amplifiers may or may not have a good ear" or anything else that may imply. You clearly have a great amount of experience with amplifiers and could almost certainly teach me quite a few things, I'm sure of it. I was simply playing Devil's advocate to take a stance against the notion that every amplifier sounds the same and a person should just go and buy the one with the best warranty or otherwise, though it should be a factor. I realize that many amplifiers are very much the same regardless of cost or marketing efforts but some are also very different and far too many people who don't know any better are reading these threads. They should be allowed the hope that there are products that do indeed perform better than others no matter the reason why. It troubles me when I read absolute statements such as the one that requires all amplifiers sound the same so I naturally feel the need to offer an alternative view and I used the best reasoning I could come up with at that instant based on my experience which involved some home audio gear.

I truly understood what you were saying about the majority of the population, average ears, and real world automobile environments and I agree, though if we were all average, we wouldn't have sports greats among us or geniuses to solve problems and innovate. Point being there are exceptions to the norm but they are relevant and should be included. I was a bit surprised when you commented that a class T, G, or H (yes, I realize that is a misnomer for an amplifier that is still a class D) offered no better performance than conventional class D amplifiers. Did the Tripath technology not offer better joining of the waveforms halves, a smoother more accurate transition from the positive half to the negative half? Doesn't that in conjunction with the higher rate of tracking allow for full range frequency response? Wouldn't that be measurable and audible? Wouldn't that be enough to squash the absolute statement that watt for watt all amplifiers sound the same?

Regardless, I will not continue on in this fashion because I don't feel most will benefit from the point I'm trying to make or the opinion I'm offering. I will respectfully bow out of this conversation and I apologize to anyone I've offended.

 

[Pl8er 5,000+ posts]

well all those amps like audison and tru are greta but way to expensive for us people who are just making above minimum wage so sundown/incriminator or RD audio amps are like gold since we can afford them and they put out a nice amount of power but if i ever found a steal on a TRU or a Audison amp oon craigslist id snag it right away.

See this is my point exactly! I'd just put X2 but I want to really point this out. The point is to buy the best quality product you can afford. And honestly sundown does not fit into the same category as RD/Incriminator. Yes, they are good amps, but sundown loves his product. I mean, there is a ton of quality there that puts them above the other 2 mentioned. I've really liked the setups and quality from sundown (and I have yet to order one but will).

I think a sundown amp would match up in quality to my Tru in many regards. Customer service is FAR better at sundown and I think Tru's is top notch.

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

Tripath technology might have made measurable differences in audio quality reproduction in an amplifier, and might have been truly a milestone in car audio, but it's still not necessarily audible. I have worked on tripath amps and I can't say I could tell the difference by ear, but my test setup is for grunt and loading, not for SQ. We work on 2% or less of SQ type amps here. If that many really....

My response to that in particular would be to ask you, because I am not aware, where do you buy a new amp these days with a Tri-Path chip? I haven't seen any. They are all old used stuff now. Which I am not denying that they exist (better sounding amps) but I am talking about availibility, warranty, etc. If I had been out of the game a while, and wanted to ask what brands were the best, and only one person responded to me and said a Tri-path chip amp, so and so has one for sale over here (linky here) and I went and bought it, but then it broke or I wanted another one, where do I go? Another used one? New stuff would be more practical IMO. Warranty.

While were on this subject let me ask you this, would a Tri-path chip amp, put up better readings on the RTA than a good Class AB amp made in korea? I don't know. And if it didn't then why all the fuss? Yes Tripath made an advance in Class D technology, but did it outperform a Class AB amp? Is it better than the current full range class D's? Unless I am mistaken here, Tri-path is Class D operation, not just a signal processor stuck inside a Class AB amp right? I never spent much time on the ones I worked on so I could be wrong, and I haven't accepted a tri-path amp in here for repair in a LONG time now. I seem to have lost my notes on the Tri-Path amps.

 

[pawn man 10+ year member]

See this is my point exactly! I'd just put X2 but I want to really point this out. The point is to buy the best quality product you can afford. And honestly sundown does not fit into the same category as RD/Incriminator. Yes, they are good amps, but sundown loves his product. I mean, there is a ton of quality there that puts them above the other 2 mentioned. I've really liked the setups and quality from sundown (and I have yet to order one but will).
I think a sundown amp would match up in quality to my Tru in many regards. Customer service is FAR better at sundown and I think Tru's is top notch.

you think that sundown is better quality than rd or ia. what makes you think this. sundown is a great product but to say it is better quality than rd or ia is going too far.

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

Boy there are some claws and teeth showing in here....

Everyones got there reasons for their choice, but I think this thread needs to close up soon....

 

[Nut Hair Trick 10+ year member]

Boy there are some claws and teeth showing in here....
Everyones got there reasons for their choice, but I think this thread needs to close up soon....

yeah, it needs to be closed so you can get to work on them 1200D's we ordered last week //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[pawn man 10+ year member]

not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. the sundown is a great product like i said. infact dbr has stated that the amps are very simular.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Trimmed your selections, but any of these will give excellent SQ (for the most part). SQ, to me, is clean digital silence (noise free system), minimally distorted signal, good channel separation, and reasonably flat response for all volume levels you choose to listen at.
As others alluded to, these are HEAVILY dependent on a clean headunit with strong pre-outs, heavily shielded RCAs, proper wire routing, and a clean, unified ground. The OP seems to have been in the game for a while, so I'll assume he's good on the above details.

wow, exactly... i know the owner of lunar. awesome amps.. it was then i relized that all amps wheren't made the same.. i think the new reference(SS) will give many highend amps a run for the money when it comes to high output and SQ.. im tring to decided what my next amp will be, and for the money its looking good for SS ref.. my sd 100.4 has low channel seperation an sn, other than that its nice...