Bonified, Certified High Quality Amps

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Seriously, we could end the thread on this. If you don't know who db-r is....well you should know He can fix just about anything and looks at amp guts all the time.
So his word = the truth //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I appreciate the kind words too!

For the record, just because a man repairs amplifiers does not mean he has a good ear or is a good judge of faithful reproduction, assuming he has a reference for that anyway.

With a full range driver, I could use one amplifier that is a current source and one that is a voltage source and changing only the amplifier, you would hear a difference in presentation. As I said, it's about the combination. There are differences to be heard among different amplifiers.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

It depends. With the crossoverless Fostexes, it's great //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I realize in a lot of designs, though, you don't have a choice.
And tubes don't have the monopoly on the simple Class A1 goodness, either...those Nelson Pass First Watt amps are nice too, I'd want to own a pair some day //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Mmmmm... First Watt.

I thought about referring some of these individuals to that site to gain perspective on this topic but...

 

[Ctesibius 10+ year member]

It is laughable to say that there is no difference to be heard among amplifiers. If you feel that way, you have a long way to progress in the field of audio.

It's more important to understand why differences might (or might not) be present, what those differences might be and how we might be able to eliminate those differences.

You have to admit, most of the touted "sound quality" differences between amplifiers is simply marketing techno-bullshit and/or people fooling themselves by not properly comparing the amplifiers in question. If you don't feel that way, you have a long way to progress in the field of audio //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif And many of the differences (such as frequency response anomalies, for example) that do exist can be dealt with.

And let's be honest......in car audio, how many exotic amplifier designs really exist in the marketplace? How many true, honest to goodness tube amps are there? One? How many constant current amplifiers are on the market for car audio? One? How many true class A amps exist? And now how much do these products cost? In these arguments, people either like to mention how the removed amp A and installed amp B, heard a difference and swear it's a sound difference between the amplifiers themselves.....or they like to bring up these exotic designs that realistically barely even exist in our market. We can argue about which theoretical construct would "sound different" and why or why not, but if they are both made of unobtainium, does it really matter?

 

[Ctesibius 10+ year member]

This.
:waits for inevitable and very misunderstood mentioning of the RC challenge:

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/popcorn.gif.32dd9e22fd77e77bc3c907062768fcd2.gif

There are people on both sides of the debate who don't understand the hypothesis.

The people who don't understand how it relates to the "real world" are the worst of the bunch.

"Sure, it work in a lab. But my car in my driveway isn't a lab!" //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

 

[Pl8er 5,000+ posts]

For the record, just because a man repairs amplifiers does not mean he has a good ear or is a good judge of faithful reproduction, assuming he has a reference for that anyway.
With a full range driver, I could use one amplifier that is a current source and one that is a voltage source and changing only the amplifier, you would hear a difference in presentation. As I said, it's about the combination. There are differences to be heard among different amplifiers.

Agreed. I was basically referring to his statement that the internals on most amps are the same. Not that he has a great ear. I actually stated that each person will perceive sound differently. My tastes are not the same as my brother-in-laws was my example.

Honestly, you and I are saying exactly the same things.

 

[TubeSockTitties]

I am not the end-all take my word as final word person.
I just give my opinion. Honestly I have only been working on amps for 4 years now. So I don't know everything, I don't have a college degree, though I do have about 4 semesters of credit toward an EET degree way back in the mid-90's, kinda out of date now, but I don't care for school much.

Remember guys, it's just my opinion, I am wrong from time to time, not always right. Been around car audio since back in the mid-80's, so I remember a thing or two, but I was completely out of it from about 97-2004 so alot of the crap that came out during those years I may not have my facts straight on, but I try. Like US Amps for example. I don't think I ever heard of them until I started repairing amps, yet a lot of people regard them as "old school". But to me that's not old school, that's new shit. Old school is like Kenwood KAC-1020. Linear Power, Old Original Punch series amps, 45, 75 and 150. Old Autotek 7600's etc.... that's old shit.... A US Amps VLX is newer stuff.... My first amp was a pyramid amp, it was ugly as hell, it made noise even without the speaker attached, you could hear the bass inside of it, going through the transformers or whatever was in that thing.... I think it was a PB200, it was 4 channels, sqaure with fins, had the red and black home stereo hookup style speaker outputs, you know the ones you lift the lever, insert the wire and then push back down, or maybe they were spring loaded, maybe. Find me one of those I will give you $50 for it. Find me a KAC-1020 (dead or alive) or a 1021 and I will give you $100 for it.

That Kenwood 1021 was a bad MFr back in the day. I had one hooked up to my 2 Cerwin Vega 12's, until some scum took my shit in the middle of the night.

 

[mokedaddy 5,000+ posts]

There are people on both sides of the debate who don't understand the hypothesis.
The people who don't understand how it relates to the "real world" are the worst of the bunch.

"Sure, it work in a lab. But my car in my driveway isn't a lab!" //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

You can sleep tonight knowing that I understand the challenge.

 

[Pl8er 5,000+ posts]

There are people on both sides of the debate who don't understand the hypothesis.
The people who don't understand how it relates to the "real world" are the worst of the bunch.

"Sure, it work in a lab. But my car in my driveway isn't a lab!" //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

X2. Also, the whole "go to the store and listen" doesn't help either. Listening in a room full of equipment is not the same as having something in your own car which will have it's own acoustics.

 

[Ctesibius 10+ year member]

You can sleep tonight knowing that I understand the challenge.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/celebrate.gif.82eef51c49c9919296cb60fd0d148863.gif

 

[IMOVeCHICKENS! 10+ year member]

well all those amps like audison and tru are greta but way to expensive for us people who are just making above minimum wage so sundown/incriminator or RD audio amps are like gold since we can afford them and they put out a nice amount of power but if i ever found a steal on a TRU or a Audison amp oon craigslist id snag it right away.

 

[msimon 10+ year member]

Just some food for thought...

http://web.archive.org/web/20070403223202/forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=123226&pagenumber=1

I really miss ECA...

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

It's more important to understand why differences might (or might not) be present, what those differences might be and how we might be able to eliminate those differences.
You have to admit, most of the touted "sound quality" differences between amplifiers is simply marketing techno-bullshit and/or people fooling themselves by not properly comparing the amplifiers in question. If you don't feel that way, you have a long way to progress in the field of audio //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif And many of the differences (such as frequency response anomalies, for example) that do exist can be dealt with.

And let's be honest......in car audio, how many exotic amplifier designs really exist in the marketplace? How many true, honest to goodness tube amps are there? One? How many constant current amplifiers are on the market for car audio? One? How many true class A amps exist? And now how much do these products cost? In these arguments, people either like to mention how the removed amp A and installed amp B, heard a difference and swear it's a sound difference between the amplifiers themselves.....or they like to bring up these exotic designs that realistically barely even exist in our market. We can argue about which theoretical construct would "sound different" and why or why not, but if they are both made of unobtainium, does it really matter?

Agreed, marketing is one thing and performance is another.

I understand those reasons why presentations will vary and even hinted at some of them. And while the car audio market may not benefit from many "exotic" circuit designs, there are some to be had. The fact remains that they don't have to be "exotic" for a difference to be heard. I never suggested that was necessary to begin with. I've never suggested that for any difference to be heard, the amplifier had to be X amount of power or had to cost X amount of dollars or be made by X company. In fact I've tried to be as vague as possible to simply state the fact that amplifiers can and do sound different solely for the sake of arguing the point that all amplifiers sound the same. If that were true people wouldn't settle for 8 or 9 watts because of how they sound. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Hindering this debate is the fact that many people don't even have drivers that offer the type of resolution or coherency necessary (or the intimate time with them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/naughty.gif.94359f346c0f1259df8038d60b41863e.gif) to make that type of comparison.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Agreed. I was basically referring to his statement that the internals on most amps are the same. Not that he has a great ear. I actually stated that each person will perceive sound differently. My tastes are not the same as my brother-in-laws was my example.
Honestly, you and I are saying exactly the same things.

Indeed we are for the most part.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Just some food for thought...
http://web.archive.org/web/20070403223202/forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=123226&pagenumber=1

I really miss ECA...

Thank you for that link. I've not had the privilege yet.

 

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

For the record, just because a man repairs amplifiers does not mean he has a good ear or is a good judge of faithful reproduction, assuming he has a reference for that anyway.
With a full range driver, I could use one amplifier that is a current source and one that is a voltage source and changing only the amplifier, you would hear a difference in presentation. As I said, it's about the combination. There are differences to be heard among different amplifiers.

If you believe that there are distinct differences between the sound of amplifiers then you know very little about car audio. Your system is probably very nice I'm sure but your knowledge of car audio particularly amplifiers is lacking. There are probably 95% of people on this forum who will tell you that the differences between THD percentages between the so-called high quality audisons or tru amplifiers and the Sundown, RD, RF, etc are not audible and yet you are still babbling. You have a car amplifier technician who has repaired, viewed the internals of many amps, listened to many amps that he has repaired and yet you still babble. Here is what you do, go to several car audio shops listen to many amplifiers and speakers on the displays and let us know if you hear audible differences between them. The differences are in the processing, speakers, head units but not amplifiers. All they do is amplify the signal of the sound coming from the head units. Nothing more nothing less.