Bonified, Certified High Quality Amps

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

The new rockford amps are built well in my opinion, however, the drive circuitry sucks and they use junk parts. Now if the circuitry was improved and the parts were replaced with good parts, they wouldn't be so bad. RF and MTX are not high quality amps.

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[tinmanchris217 10+ year member]

I think most people's problem with that is that the drivers that are available aren't good enough to exploit the amplifiers characteristics, unless you spend a small fortune on drivers, AND amplifiers AND a good source unit you won't be able to tell those differences.

Going back to the OP's topic, I must agree with db-r. Only with sensitive, accurate speakers... in enclosures that give reasonably smooth frequency responses... and a clean source... will you EVER be able to distinguish between an RF and a Audison.

If you guys have listened to one of those low-power home setups, with a 10w class-t amp on 2 full-range TL/Horn speakers, you'll know exactly the details we're talking about here. Simplicity and (relatively) easy elegance.

Add in higher power ranges, and more speakers. You can still get the clarity, but it requires care. Each crossover matters, differences in speaker parameters matter, and clean, independent amplification matters. All parts of your system to be dialed in, if you want similar results.

 

[WrenchGuy 10+ year member]

Not that my opinion really matters but if I was going at my setup with the same state of mind I would choose ARC Audio.

They seem to really cover all the bases from my reading and research. I would go in their direction with the funds.

 

[perfecxionX 10+ year member]

this debate always makes me think of a recent study on wine tasting

In other words, "prices, by themselves, affect activity in an area of the brain that is thought to encode the experienced pleasantness of an experience," Rangel says.
Rangel and his colleagues had 20 volunteers taste five wine samples which, they were told, were identified by their different retail prices: $5, $10, $35, $45, and $90 per bottle. While the subjects tasted and evaluated the wines, their brains were scanned using functional magnetic resonance imaging, or fMRI.

The subjects consistently reported that they liked the taste of the $90 bottle better than the $5 one, and the $45 bottle better than the $35 one. Scans of their brains supported their subjective reports; a region of the brain called the medial orbitofrontal cortex, or mOFC, showed higher activity when the subjects drank the wines they said were more pleasurable.

There was a catch to the experiment, however. Although the subjects had been told that they would taste five different, variously priced wines, they actually had sampled only three. Wines 1 and 2 were used twice, but labeled with two different prices. For example, wine 2 was presented as the $90 wine (its actual retail price) and also as the $10 wine. When the subjects were told the wine cost $90 a bottle, they loved it; at $10 a bottle, not so much. In a follow-up experiment, the subjects again tasted all five wine samples, but without any price information; this time, they rated the cheapest wine as their most preferred.

http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/13091

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.full.pdf

 

[Grinder1989 5,000+ posts]

You are entitled to your opinion.

The junk parts is not an opinion. They are Fairchild parts and they are inferior to IRF parts.

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

this debate always makes me think of a recent study on wine tasting

http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/13091

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.full.pdf

Yeah, I think I tried to make that point, but wasn't as able to convey it here in words. It's human nature to think brand A is better than Brand B if Brand A is more expensive. Doesn't mean that is always the case, there are always experts that really can tell the difference but true experts (people with great ears) are not everywhere, just a few of them around out of every 1000 people IMO. I drink so much Dr. Pepper that I could probably tell you if one was from a different batch than the other, but I couldn't tell you if you had a BOSS or Lunar amp in your car when I sat and listened to each one. Maybe, but only if you had some good speakers. And I think high power just blows SQ out of the question, resonances in the listening area that would have more effect at higher dB levels would screw up SQ. Need low power, good drivers, and good placement. Not high power with .0000001% THD... The listening area would become a problem at much higher dB levels.

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

The junk parts is not an opinion. They are Fairchild parts and they are inferior to IRF parts.

I don't entirely want to rag on Fairchild parts, but I do prefer the IR parts myself, they seem to be more robust IMO. But I haven't tried all of the Fairchild parts in amplifiers.

I know RF does use Fairchild alot in their newer amplifiers, but I don't think they are a problem. I think the new RF amps are decades better than the old ones, much more rugged for sure. Same SQ. They have always been all mosfet transistor amplifiers, whereas most older Class AB's are mosfet power supply, but BJT (Bipolar Junction Transistor) outputs. Some people will tell you that BJT's produce a better sound in a Class AB design than mosfets, yet mosfet outputs are used in ALL RF products dating back to the originals in the mid 80's. I have never seen a RF amp with a BJT output stage. But I have seen 1000's of other amps that use BJT's as outputs. Some of the really old amps even used BJT's as the power supply transistors, however, it's more conventional to use a square wave to make the power supply work, rather than a sine or modified sine wave. Mosfets are at their best with square waves, quickly on, and quickly off. BJT's are designed to operate linearly, slowly on, then slowly ramping back off, like a Sine wave, no hard peaks. So why use mosfets as an output device in an amplifier in Class AB operation that will be sending out (to the speakers) a sine wave, rather than a square wave? Not sure why RF did it the way they did. Maybe cost? durability? Not for SQ I would think. However most people regard their RF amps as an SQ amp, but I am not sure how that would be the case being that the outputs are mosfets. Now in a Class D amp where the output section is switched completely on and off in a square wave, where the pulse width is modulated and the output filter circuit converts that back into a sine wave or something that closely resembles a sine wave mosfets are a must. BJT's would FAIL at this switching.... not designed for it and would be horribly inefficient. So why did RF use mosfets as their output devices in a Class AB design amplifier? Nobody knows. Just guessing it was because the mosfets of the time were perhaps more able to pass higher amounts of current to the speakers in a heavy load, low impedance situation than a BJT of the time, and they wanted a rugged amplifier, but doing this (using mosfets for SQ) would seem to NOT be the case. This all goes back to comparing Tubes vs Solid State transistors for output and pre-amp stages. People have their different opinions at which is best for what reasons. This new debate is whether a mosfet output stage in Class AB design is better than a BJT (normal solid state transistor, non-mosfet) for SQ or for SPL, or for durability. Anyone know the answer? I sure don't.

Just thought I'd share that info. I am sure some of the design/engineer type people here could shed SOME light on it.

 

[Grinder1989 5,000+ posts]

I don't entirely want to rag on Fairchild parts, but I do prefer the IR parts myself, they seem to be more robust IMO. But I haven't tried all of the Fairchild parts in amplifiers.
I know RF does use Fairchild alot in their newer amplifiers, but I don't think they are a problem. I think the new RF amps are decades better than the old ones, much more rugged for sure. Same SQ. They have always been all mosfet transistor amplifiers, whereas most older Class AB's are mosfet power supply, but BJT (Bipolar Junction Transistor) outputs. Some people will tell you that BJT's produce a better sound in a Class AB design than mosfets, yet mosfet outputs are used in ALL RF products dating back to the originals in the mid 80's. I have never seen a RF amp with a BJT output stage. But I have seen 1000's of other amps that use BJT's as outputs. Some of the really old amps even used BJT's as the power supply transistors, however, it's more conventional to use a square wave to make the power supply work, rather than a sine or modified sine wave. Mosfets are at their best with square waves, quickly on, and quickly off. BJT's are designed to operate linearly, slowly on, then slowly ramping back off, like a Sine wave, no hard peaks. So why use mosfets as an output device in an amplifier in Class AB operation that will be sending out (to the speakers) a sine wave, rather than a square wave? Not sure why RF did it the way they did. Maybe cost? durability? Not for SQ I would think. However most people regard their RF amps as an SQ amp, but I am not sure how that would be the case being that the outputs are mosfets. Now in a Class D amp where the output section is switched completely on and off in a square wave, where the pulse width is modulated and the output filter circuit converts that back into a sine wave or something that closely resembles a sine wave mosfets are a must. BJT's would FAIL at this switching.... not designed for it and would be horribly inefficient. So why did RF use mosfets as their output devices in a Class AB design amplifier? Nobody knows. Just guessing it was because the mosfets of the time were perhaps more able to pass higher amounts of current to the speakers in a heavy load, low impedance situation than a BJT of the time, and they wanted a rugged amplifier, but doing this (using mosfets for SQ) would seem to NOT be the case. This all goes back to comparing Tubes vs Solid State transistors for output and pre-amp stages. People have their different opinions at which is best for what reasons. This new debate is whether a mosfet output stage in Class AB design is better than a BJT (normal solid state transistor, non-mosfet) for SQ or for SPL, or for durability. Anyone know the answer? I sure don't.

Just thought I'd share that info. I am sure some of the design/engineer type people here could shed SOME light on it.

I don't think that using fairchild parts affects an amp's sound quality or anything, however I feel it's bullshit to charge the prices they do for an amp and put cheap parts in their amplifiers. Including the channels and powersupply. Fairchilds have higher gate charges then IRF out of all the fets I've seen. This will cause an amp to not be able to run at it's full potential. I mean would you personally want all Fairchilds in say a sundown 3000? Of course not because they are not quality parts. RF is not garbage, by any means, but they are not in competition with some of these other high end companies.

 

[lithodude]

This thread is a grind! I'm just like the original poster and am looking for good quality.

The first quality system I heard back in the 80s was Rockford Fosgate so when it came time to go big I went with Fosgate P8004 driving 4 Fosgate 6x9s and a P4002 driving 2 Fosgate 10s. WHAT A HUGE DISSAPOINTMENT! RF is not what they used to be! A Kraco would blow this system away. Yes it's loud but the sound quality absolutely SUCKS! I don't want to spend ridiculous amounts of money so if anyone can get back to the original posters question and advise on good quality for a reasonable price a lot of people reading this thread would really appreciate it Please don't bother chiming in on this cleansoundz you obviously have a vested interest in Fosgate, it's a shame how they have destroyed what used to be a good name. BTW if anyone wants to drink cleansoundz kool-aid, the above RF components have only a couple hours on them and are for sale cheap. Send me a pm with an offer:veryhapp:

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

I went with Fosgate P8004 driving 4 Fosgate 6x9s and a P4002 driving 2 Fosgate 10s. WHAT A HUGE DISSAPOINTMENT! RF is not what they used to be! A Kraco would blow this system away. Yes it's loud but the sound quality absolutely SUCKS!

If SQ is your objective your first mistake was using 6x9's.

 

[mccanng 10+ year member]

Audison, Hertz, Focal, and possibly Digital Designs are some high quality amps. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[perfecxionX 10+ year member]

A blind survey on amplifier sound:

But for now, the evidence would seem to suggest that distinctive amplifiers sounds, if they exist at all, are so minute that they form a poor basis for choosing one amplifier over another. Certainly there are still differences between amps, but we are unlikely to hear them.

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

Zed -- new models beginning production mid-August, they're taking pre-pro orders now.

 

[Farmacist 10+ year member]

lunar helix auison soundstream zapco mac focal polk ID arc... id run any of those in a heartbeat.. im really thinking about tring the new reference 4.920... old school design decent parts.. honestly looks like the best design for under 700 bucks...

go for it the new reference amps are AMAZING

 

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

This thread is a grind! I'm just like the original poster and am looking for good quality.The first quality system I heard back in the 80s was Rockford Fosgate so when it came time to go big I went with Fosgate P8004 driving 4 Fosgate 6x9s and a P4002 driving 2 Fosgate 10s. WHAT A HUGE DISSAPOINTMENT! RF is not what they used to be! A Kraco would blow this system away. Yes it's loud but the sound quality absolutely SUCKS! I don't want to spend ridiculous amounts of money so if anyone can get back to the original posters question and advise on good quality for a reasonable price a lot of people reading this thread would really appreciate it Please don't bother chiming in on this cleansoundz you obviously have a vested interest in Fosgate, it's a shame how they have destroyed what used to be a good name. BTW if anyone wants to drink cleansoundz kool-aid, the above RF components have only a couple hours on them and are for sale cheap. Send me a pm with an offer:veryhapp:

Keep my name out of this. I like Fosgate and Lanzar Optidrive or other ZED products. Other people have other preferences and that's cool. My whole argument is don't knock a product if you haven't used it extensively. Plain and simple. That is like me knocking Digital Designs when I have never used them before. The RF P8004 & P4002 is that Best Buy stuff. There are so many threads on this forum knocking every brand whether it's Kicker, Sundown Audio, Atomic, RF, DD and there are other people who defend their brands and I am just one person who is defending my brand which is RF. I learned that some people do not consider RF to be high quality and that is fine. To each his own.

BTW Using 6x9s is an 80's trend not a current trend. Everyone pays the money for separates not 6x9s.