B&w Vs Svs

[1loudsuv 10+ year member]

experimentation...I'm referring to a scientific experiment which results in objective data that explains the acoustic environment of your vehicle, not experience in the sense of being an apprentice to a box builder...or best buy car installer...or whatever

Ok I am gonna play like I am just learning and ask you some questions, and you never know I might learn something...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

So how do I go about finding the acoustic environment of my truck? detailed steps please, and after I find them how do I find out which sub and amp to use? and after that what do I do?

For street c setup, 6-10s/ 4-12's/2-15s/1-18 below the window line and behind the b pillar and all seats must function normally and up to 8 amps strapped. no modifications to the skin of the car or interior only 2 layers of dynamat at max at any point.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

No, they don't. It's all about research and experimentation. You measure the transfer function of the specific vehicle and build a box that creates a high resonant peak that complements the vehicles peak. I really fail to see the huge amount of engineering involved with something like that. Creating a high pressure heterogeneous sound field is not crazy...creating a high pressure homogeneous sound field on the other hand would be a lot trickier.

but how can you do experimentation without hands on experience? you fail to see it cause you never have done it...

The difference is that someone coming from a scientific background would know how to approach the situation, there is very little engineering involved with something of that magnitude (ie what you're describing). I'm not sure what your scores are, but apparently they're good enough to warrant credibility...and from what I've seen from your posts, You haven't applied any knowledge of science to achieve them. Applying science and engineering a solution would yield much better results.

BTW, even though I have no real world experience in box building...hiring an experienced Amish carpenter to construct a box I've designed would be very easy. Your experience and skills hold very little real world value.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Now that is a crappy analogy.

Indeed...

Nope, you failed to read my post.

He does that a lot, get used to it if you want to argue with him....

Your 7 years of car audio experience have landed you the ability to wire a car? Aren't there people at bestbuy who possess those skills?

True that....

I've never claimed to have ever competed in an SPL competition. This is the home audio section and I was commenting on a home audio matter.

Read the bold words until you get it... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

you made it personal.

Hence the whole thread... Thinking he was going to be smart and piss me off by showing me B&W was crappy. No dice my friend...

Ok I am gonna play like I am just learning and ask you some questions, and you never know I might learn something...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
So how do I go about finding the acoustic environment of my truck? detailed steps please, and after I find them how do I find out which sub and amp to use? and after that what do I do?

For street c setup, 6-10s/ 4-12's/2-15s/1-18 below the window line and behind the b pillar and all seats must function normally and up to 8 amps strapped. no modifications to the skin of the car or interior only 2 layers of dynamat at max at any point.

Please read the words in bold above...

K thanx...

The difference is that someone coming from a scientific background would know how to approach the situation, there is very little engineering involved with something of that magnitude (ie what you're describing). I'm not sure what your scores are, but apparently they're good enough to warrant credibility...and from what I've seen from your posts, You haven't applied any knowledge of science to achieve them. Applying science and engineering a solution would yield much better results.
BTW, even though I have no real world experience in box building...hiring an experienced Amish carpenter to construct a box I've designed would be very easy. Your experience and skills hold very little real world value.

Amish > Just about anyone when it comes to wood...

Science > Luck too...

 

[1loudsuv 10+ year member]

Down to 35hz...no problem? I'm not sure what you consider "no problem", 10% distortion seemed perfectly acceptable and actually good performance to you. Are you not familiar with dynamics?
1800 watts on 2 10s...HA. Why would you need that much power for the home, unless the speakers are miserably inefficient they should only need 200 watts to make your ears bleed. This isn't car audio where you're stuck with tiny boxes and huge power requirements to get any SPL.

FYI, I'd still put money that 2 of the RSS390HFs would trounce your TC2000 down to 10hz in distortion performance and output. It's a matter of physics and the Daytons don't cost much at all, AND have a better/low distortion motor.

Where is the graph that has distortion values? FR? You keep saying how low the distortion is on the dayton but have yet to post a graph of it

 

[1loudsuv 10+ year member]

. See if you can find some specs on some ASW850 or ASW825. My father has a ASW825 to go with his 804S and it is in a 24' x 32' room with 14' cathedral ceilings with 7ft by 8ft arch ways that go into a very large open entry way and into a kitchen which is very large. Guess what! It is more subwoofer than is needed!!! It will fill the whole house with sound to excess.

Wow I keep reading from you that B&W subs are a perfect match for B&W speakers well I guess high distortion is whats needed right //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14721&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

Anything below about 42 hertz and it has over 10%thd //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/blackeye.gif.66a1670f5aaf7f406e783a63e3387dc5.gif

over 30% thd at anything over 90db and 30 hertz and lower //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

looks like it is only good for 50 hertz and up bass which in that case isn't considered a "SUB"woofer

BTW the svs pb-13 ultra is in its price range and actually cheaper and performs way better in all aspects.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=22950&start=0&rid=7164&SQ=1189224151

I used to dream of owning a B&W sub and guess what, not anymore //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/blackeye.gif.66a1670f5aaf7f406e783a63e3387dc5.gif I own neither though no svs no B&W sub, but I wouldnt mind playing with the svs for a couple of days //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

Wow I keep reading from you that B&W subs are a perfect match for B&W speakers well I guess high distortion is whats needed right //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14721&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

Anything below about 42 hertz and it has over 10%thd //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/blackeye.gif.66a1670f5aaf7f406e783a63e3387dc5.gif

over 30% thd at anything over 90db and 30 hertz and lower //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

looks like it is only good for 50 hertz and up bass which in that case isn't considered a "SUB"woofer

BTW the svs pb-13 ultra is in its price range and actually cheaper and performs way better in all aspects.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=22950&start=0&rid=7164&SQ=1189224151

I used to dream of owning a B&W sub and guess what, not anymore //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/blackeye.gif.66a1670f5aaf7f406e783a63e3387dc5.gif I own neither though no svs no B&W sub, but I wouldnt mind playing with the svs for a couple of days //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif

Please stop posting in this thread and quoting posts from other threads. You embarrassed yourself earlier when you showed everyone you had no idea what you were talking about when it came to performance, objective data, or actual physics...you have 7 years of experience, stick with that.

How old is this thread? 9 days? cmon...man get a life. It's done, let it die. You lost.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

Where is the graph that has distortion values? FR? You keep saying how low the distortion is on the dayton but have yet to post a graph of it

Yeah, try again. I posted this on the 2nd page at the beginning of our argument 16 days ago.

do you realize how BAD 10% distortion is? 10% distortion is absolutely horrible!

I'm not exactly sure on the output level, but I believe it is in the 100-106dB range for both drivers.

-40dB is the 1% distortion mark, -50 is .3%

Both of these drivers are hovering around in the POINT 1 to POINT ZERO 3 percent distortion mark.

Guess what the left driver is? The Dayton RSS315HF (Dayton Reference High Fidelity 12") and it only costs about $130. Your crappy SVS sub that you keep touting has 10% distortion in a very narrow bandwidth at low output levels...the SVS sub sucks!

 

[1loudsuv 10+ year member]

Yeah, try again. I posted this on the 2nd page at the beginning of our argument 16 days ago.

ok thats The FR wheres the thd values?

Why is that graph in -db? why didnt he test it with higher spl levels? maybe trying to cover something up? higher spl from the same setup equals higher distortion.

 

[1loudsuv 10+ year member]

Please stop posting in this thread and quoting posts from other threads. You embarrassed yourself earlier when you showed everyone you had no idea what you were talking about when it came to performance, objective data, or actual physics...you have 7 years of experience, stick with that.
How old is this thread? 9 days? cmon...man get a life. It's done, let it die. You lost.

wow 9 days old //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/redface.gif.62fdbfe1a101588a808c4cff71bcb942.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

yep I lost but the true loser in the svs vs B&w is b&W //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/blackeye.gif.66a1670f5aaf7f406e783a63e3387dc5.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/nerd.gif.c6fa51ddf7ff75f1c0371fbc648f70ae.gif

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

ok thats The FR wheres the thd values?
Why is that graph in -db? why didnt he test it with higher spl levels?

acoustic energy does not increase linearly with sound pressure levels. The relationship is logarithmic. It makes much more sense to show the logarithmic relationship than try to display the information in a linear form. Linear values can be misleading.

btw that is a very high sound pressure level. People who understand how sound works and wish to design a sound system know that close to a flat frequency response is desirable for sound quality (some response aberrations are ok, but large deviations are undesirable). The bass has to be at the same relative level as the midrange...how often do you listen full range at 100dB+ (if often, your hearing is probably terrible). On top of that, getting a full range system with low distortion and dynamics (the crest will exceed 100dB) at those output levels is VERY difficult.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

ok thats The FR wheres the thd values?
Why is that graph in -db? why didnt he test it with higher spl levels? maybe trying to cover something up? higher spl from the same setup equals higher distortion.

The THD curves are the green, blue, purple and gray lines.

The key in the upper left hand corner indicates which color represents what harmonic.

So, given the key....the red response is the "fundamental", or the original signal. The green line is the second order harmonic distortion. The blue line is the 3rd order harmonic distortion, followed with purple being the 4th order and gray the 5th order harmonic distortion.

As Thad correctly pointed out, the -40db mark is the 1% THD level and -50db is ~ .3% THD.

Given all of the data is below the -40db line, it indicates that the distortion for every harmonic is below 1% THD at the power/output level of the test.

I saw your unedited posts asking if the driver had 200% distortion or was producing 200db since the harmonics were at -50db (which is about .3% THD, not 200% [not sure how you arrived at that figure])......for future reference, here is a simple calculator that converts the db to THD % for you;

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm

 

[1loudsuv 10+ year member]

acoustic energy does not increase linearly with sound pressure levels. The relationship is logarithmic. It makes much more sense to show the logarithmic relationship than try to display the information in a linear form. Linear values can be misleading.
btw that is a very high sound pressure level. People who understand how sound works and wish to design a sound system know that close to a flat frequency response is desirable for sound quality (some response aberrations are ok, but large deviations are undesirable). The bass has to be at the same relative level as the midrange...how often do you listen full range at 100dB+ (if often, your hearing is probably terrible). On top of that, getting a full range system with low distortion and dynamics (the crest will exceed 100dB) at those output levels is VERY difficult.

So lets compare apples to apples then if you where saying that the dayton has less distortion then the tc sub which has been test at ouput levels over 110 dbs where is the graph for the dayton at those kind of output levels? 100 dbs for bass wont make you go deaf.... or else 99% of the car audio people here would be deaf, cause most have systems in their car that are capable of 140db+ and my home audio system is capable of 126 dbs at 18 hertz and it isnt "enough" which is why i doubled everything.. I hope to one day be in the 140db range in my ht //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

squeak thanks for explaining it to me //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

wow 9 days old //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/redface.gif.62fdbfe1a101588a808c4cff71bcb942.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif
yep I lost but the true loser in the svs vs B&w is b&W //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/blackeye.gif.66a1670f5aaf7f406e783a63e3387dc5.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/nerd.gif.c6fa51ddf7ff75f1c0371fbc648f70ae.gif

You are the loser, you're posting objective data and yet you don't know how to interpret it. How is that any use to you, and what are you proving? Your previous example (lower end B&W vs SVS) failed...so you bring up another example (higher end B&W vs SVS). What is your goal for this thread? Nobody really cares which brand you prefer...we're not all fan boys. If we were in the market for a driver, we'll choose the higher performing one...we don't need you to tell us that. You cannot generalize this broadly (B&W vs SVS).

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

100 dbs for bass wont make you go deaf.... or else 99% of the car audio people here would be deaf, cause most have systems in their car that are capable of 140db+ and my home audio system is capable of 126 dbs at 18 hertz and it isnt "enough" which is why i doubled everything.. I hope to one day be in the 140db range in my ht //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

You missed Thad's point.

His point was; Most "purist" home audio/HT enthusiasts are after relatively flat frequency response. As such, the level of subbass for a system needs to relatively match that of the rest of the audio spectrum. Since most people can't tolerate levels of midrange and treble playing 110db for anything more than a very, very brief period of time, there is no need for the subwoofer to provide that level of output (or more) on a consistent basis.

He didn't say 100db of bass would make you deaf. But extended periods of 100db+ midrange and treble certainly will. And in the interest of flat frequency response, you would want the subbass at approximately that same level aswell instead of 115db+ unless the midrange and treble were at that level also......which will almost never happen.

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

I hope to one day be in the 140db range in my ht //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

I hope you are joking.