Acoustic Elegance AV12-X D2!

people arguing have no experence what so ever that is laughable.. john plotted many enclosures, and said 1500 wouldn't danage the woofer, yet in 2.8 tuned to 31 i got uncontrolled excursion...

yall are blabbing about damping box size etc but no nothing of the sort, then we have MR mines in 2.75 and sounds excellent.. u don't know what excellent sounds like..

i must have said it 1000 times the woofer had very little control over 50 i HAD to cross it that low to get decent output otherwise it would botton easily, i got pissed crossed it @ 70 played 1 song maybe 2min rooling the volume and what do you know??

 
I'm not coming in here to hate on Jon or Acoustic Elegance. I've never owned one of their products, but I have noticed trends... Remember subs like the Adire Brahma and some of the various TC subs that had serious idiot-proofing issues? Yeah, both of those companies have crashed and burned. I'm not saying it's completely the fault of the subs they produced. In fact, Wiggins and Stompler single-handedly ran their companies into the ground. But the turning point came when they started pumping out non idiot-proofed drivers, faced mobs of pissed off customers, and just threw in the towel.

Jon isn't destined to run his company into the ground by any means, but his failure to idiot-proof his subs may come back to bite him in the ***, as it already has to a mild degree. I come in making suggestions on how to better his subs, and y'all flame me out of the thread. Brilliant. More conservative ratings and some minor tweaks to the sub could save him a lot of headaches.

 
Woven in tinsels are great except they become very brittle throughout the forming process as the spider is formed with heat. I have seen MANY drivers with the woven in leads what have frayed, sparked, and even started 100% cotton spiders on fire.
Interesting. So who uses 100% cotton spiders now days? I could be wrong but most have got away from it due to long term performance issues. WAIT! Is this where you got the sag when mounting a woofer facing upward //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

There are MANY high power daily subs using the woven method with no issues. I would like to know which drivers you know of with this issue please.

 
Is this where you got the sag when mounting a woofer facing upward //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
Seriously, have none of you ever heard of driver sag before //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

 
Seriously, have none of you ever heard of driver sag before //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif
I was wondering the same, every electrodynamic driver ever made suffers from sag, EVERY driver.

 
I've heard of driver sag, but its never been a huge issue in the car audio community because most subs use spiders that can withstand gravity.
Correct. Wonder why there are no more 100% cotton spiders //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
I've heard of driver sag, but its never been a huge issue in the car audio community because most subs use spiders that can withstand gravity.
It's a function of the mass in relation to the compliance.

Most SPL subs use very stiff spiders, yes. If you incorrectly generalize every single subwoofer marketed for car audio into that one specific genre, then I guess you might be correct.

Though as you can see from the link given by bose, the Shiva is calculated by Adire to have some sag. It was sold to the car audio crowd. I guess it was just a horrible, shitty design because it sags some when mounted horizontally //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif I guess that's probably the reason Adire went under.....because the Shiva sagged when mounted horizontally.

 
I've owned dozens of subs, ranging from as cheap as they get to $400 subs. I've got an old *** Kenwood sitting behind me that I ran hard, and it's been sitting under my bed for a couple years. Yet there isn't really any noticeable sag. There's a pair of Funky Pups sitting in my garage from God knows when, also not sagging.

That Adire sheet ends up saying that if your sub sags less than 5% of xmax, then you're good to go. I don't know how much the AE drivers suffer from sag, but if its noticeable by eye, then there's an issue.

 
Oh, and...

Then I guess you aren't very good at abuse //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
IMG_0497.jpg


//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 
people arguing have no experence what so ever that is laughable.. john plotted many enclosures, and said 1500 wouldn't danage the woofer, yet in 2.8 tuned to 31 i got uncontrolled excursion... yall are blabbing about damping box size etc but no nothing of the sort, then we have MR mines in 2.75 and sounds excellent.. u don't know what excellent sounds like..

i must have said it 1000 times the woofer had very little control over 50 i HAD to cross it that low to get decent output otherwise it would botton easily, i got pissed crossed it @ 70 played 1 song maybe 2min rooling the volume and what do you know??
Try to make your next response coherent.

 
people arguing have no experence what so ever that is laughable.. john plotted many enclosures, and said 1500 wouldn't danage the woofer, yet in 2.8 tuned to 31 i got uncontrolled excursion... yall are blabbing about damping box size etc but no nothing of the sort, then we have MR mines in 2.75 and sounds excellent.. u don't know what excellent sounds like..

i must have said it 1000 times the woofer had very little control over 50 i HAD to cross it that low to get decent output otherwise it would botton easily, i got pissed crossed it @ 70 played 1 song maybe 2min rooling the volume and what do you know??
And I have said it as many times that above 50Hz has literally nothing to do with the suspension of the driver. The system compliance is dominated by the ENCLOSURE. Hoffman's Iron Law. You can't get around it. Below tuning in a vented box, there is virtually no compliance from the enclosure which is why it unloads. It takes very little power to drive the woofer to high excursions. That is what a highpass filter is for, also mistakenly called a subsonic or infrasonic filter. The point is to prevent the driver from over excursion. You argued with me over and over that a woofer should not need a highpass filter to protect from over excursion so I tried to explain it to you with models. I'll copy the basics here.

First, here is a graph of the AV12H in 2.5cf tuned to 33hz. The orange curve is with full range input to the driver. You can see with 1000W it is possible to exceed Xmax about 22-23hz. (with 1600W it will be much higher.) The idea is to take down excursion below tuning without affecting the output greatly above tuning. The 12db highpass (subsonic or infrasonic) with a Q of .7 will do this quite nicely. With the addition of the 30hz 12dB highpass you get the yellow curve.

AV12H_2.5cf_33hz_highpass_30hz.png


This now keeps excursion well within limits. It now takes much more power to surpass the 23mm Xmax below tuning. Now, that assumes a 2nd order highpass with a Q of .7. Some amps have a higher Q filter above 1.0 that actually gives a bump and increases excursion over a limited range before lowering it. In that case it is a good idea to move it slightly higher to the same as your tuning frequency.

The other suggestion given was for a stiffer spider. This is not nearly as effective because the system is dominated by the enclosure and not the driver suspension. You need extreme changes in suspension stiffness to protect the driver below tuning. The following graph shows the original driver in green, suspension stiffness doubled in red and then 10x the suspension stiffness in the light gray.

AV12H_2.5cf_33hz_Cms_.22_vs_.11_vs_.05.png


You can see that doubling the suspension stiffness has very little effect until under 20hz. This is not in the area we are concerned with where we will run into the excursion limits of the driver. The light gray with 10x the suspension stiffness has more effect, but at the same time actually increases excursion from 28-30hz due to the raised Q of the driver. Excursion below that point is still coming very close to the 23mm Xmax. And now the Fs of the driver is moved all the way up to well over 50Hz.

Finally here is an image just showing the woofer alone in green, with 2x suspension stiffness in red, and with the 30hz 12dB highpass in yellow.

AV12H_2.5cf_33hz_HP_vs_stiff_suspension.png


This shows clearly that a highpass is much more effective at preventing over excursion from the driver than increasing suspension stiffness.

That all assumes that the driver doesn't have a bent up cone, torn spider, and surround ripped off. I just don't have the ability to see how a woofer will model under those circumstances.

John

 
And I have said it as many times that above 50Hz has literally nothing to do with the suspension of the driver. The system compliance is dominated by the ENCLOSURE. Hoffman's Iron Law. You can't get around it. Below tuning in a vented box, there is virtually no compliance from the enclosure which is why it unloads. It takes very little power to drive the woofer to high excursions. That is what a highpass filter is for, also mistakenly called a subsonic or infrasonic filter. The point is to prevent the driver from over excursion. You argued with me over and over that a woofer should not need a highpass filter to protect from over excursion so I tried to explain it to you with models. I'll copy the basics here.
First, here is a graph of the AV12H in 2.5cf tuned to 33hz. The orange curve is with full range input to the driver. You can see with 1000W it is possible to exceed Xmax about 22-23hz. (with 1600W it will be much higher.) The idea is to take down excursion below tuning without affecting the output greatly above tuning. The 12db highpass (subsonic or infrasonic) with a Q of .7 will do this quite nicely. With the addition of the 30hz 12dB highpass you get the yellow curve.

AV12H_2.5cf_33hz_highpass_30hz.png


This now keeps excursion well within limits. It now takes much more power to surpass the 23mm Xmax below tuning. Now, that assumes a 2nd order highpass with a Q of .7. Some amps have a higher Q filter above 1.0 that actually gives a bump and increases excursion over a limited range before lowering it. In that case it is a good idea to move it slightly higher to the same as your tuning frequency.

The other suggestion given was for a stiffer spider. This is not nearly as effective because the system is dominated by the enclosure and not the driver suspension. You need extreme changes in suspension stiffness to protect the driver below tuning. The following graph shows the original driver in green, suspension stiffness doubled in red and then 10x the suspension stiffness in the light gray.

AV12H_2.5cf_33hz_Cms_.22_vs_.11_vs_.05.png


You can see that doubling the suspension stiffness has very little effect until under 20hz. This is not in the area we are concerned with where we will run into the excursion limits of the driver. The light gray with 10x the suspension stiffness has more effect, but at the same time actually increases excursion from 28-30hz due to the raised Q of the driver. Excursion below that point is still coming very close to the 23mm Xmax. And now the Fs of the driver is moved all the way up to well over 50Hz.

Finally here is an image just showing the woofer alone in green, with 2x suspension stiffness in red, and with the 30hz 12dB highpass in yellow.

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/AV12H_2.5cf_33hz_HP_vs_stiff_suspension.png[/ig]

This shows clearly that a highpass is much more effective at preventing over excursion from the driver than increasing suspension stiffness.

That all assumes that the driver doesn't have a bent up cone, torn spider, and surround ripped off. I just don't have the ability to see how a woofer will model under those circumstances.

John

Will you stop with the graphs. As stated, they don't mean anything. We will wait for the new runs to get out there and see what happens.

 
Activity
No one is currently typing a reply...
Old Thread: Please note, there have been no replies in this thread for over 3 years!
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.

About this thread

microhaxo

10+ year member
CarAudio.com Elite
Thread starter
microhaxo
Joined
Location
MINNESOTA
Start date
Participants
Who Replied
Replies
254
Views
25,304
Last reply date
Last reply from
microhaxo
IMG_20260516_193114554_HDR.jpg

sherbanater

    May 16, 2026
  • 0
  • 0
IMG_20260516_192955471_HDR.jpg

sherbanater

    May 16, 2026
  • 0
  • 0

New threads

Top