Acoustic Elegance AV12-X D2!

[bumpin buick 5,000+ posts]

Right, we do have a TON of technical stuff that we examine, but notice we don't preach to the choir about it? Because we do know what is going on, we do know what the cone is doing, we do know what the spiders are doing, we know where flux is going and where it isn't, but we do not put out the laundry list of data and white papers all over the place to try to prove a point to get people to buy something because of technical data. We don't go out and say yeah we changed this glue joint because we found that it was more prone to failure at this given rate so you need to buy these now. We didn't even announce the coming of the 11.25" motor, nor any of the iterations that has changed of it since the beginning of that run. It just is what it is at the end of the day, because it is for music and what the end user is wanting to listen to.
I also never said that a BTL will sound like that sub will..it obviously won't, it is waaaaaaaaaaaaay overbuilt and not meant for the same target as the AV (obviously). If you would want to compare an apple to an apple that could be arranged. What is done in house has everything to do with what goes on in a car. Have you ever taken a voice coil out of the case, hooked it up and measured current/voltage that you could apply to it without blowing it while sitting on the work bench? That shows the sub is playing a ultra high frequency and not moving therefore not cooling, you record that data and see how long it will take a given wattage until glue out gasses swells the former and the wire pops like a fuse. Then you know exactly at what point it thermally fails and you make note of it on x layer coil, y guage wire, z height, it will take this much wattage at 1000Hz not moving.

What I would do to prove the point:

Take 2 of those Lambda motors (Which I love btw, fantastic design), the same everything minus the coil. Wind a set of coils with a inductance that is double what the other is and see if you can honestly hear the ~2ms in impulse delay that is there. If you can honestly tell a difference (i know other things are going to change) in response/delay in the vehicle I will be thoroughly impressed if you can even detect it. Simply because in your 4 runner for example your group delay of the waveform that the speaker is creating to your ear is going to be in the 10-12ms range. Keep in mind you have to do this blind and the person that is listening can't know what woofer is what and see if they can detect it.

Nick I never said or expected the AV and BTL to sound similar, for obvious reason. I was simply stating that it was a real life test doing a direct drop-in to an SPL box, in no way did I give the sub perfect or even near ideal conditions.

Also I feel that John puts up his TS parameters to show that he does know what he is doing and can show real hard data on his subs. Most (if not all) companies will simply put up T/S parameters which I swear are made up as some have tested to have completely different parameters when tested by consumers. John is still developing his name in the industry and personally I like to see stuff like this to show that he knows what he is doing and knows more about his own product then I guarantee most companies out here do. I wish to not point fingers but there are several active companies on here that couldn't tell you half the stuff about their sub that John can. Whether its relevant to real life use or not is a different story, but I think it is important that John shows his knowledge on his products.

I would love to see some hard data on the FI line to be honest. Hell it would be nice to see from any sub company just to see.

I will talk with John and see if he can get together what you would like to see.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

I edited my other post a little bit, my apologies:

The only way to confirm the person can or can not tell a difference is a Mic array spaced every 6" all the way up the center of the car at ear level, which will require probably 30 DAC channels to record the data as the wave form passes by and the human subject will have to note which one he could tell a difference in, if any. We did some work a while back with identification of where a bullet was being shot from with an array like this on a kevlar helmet...the GUI language in that program was asinine.

 

[bumpin buick 5,000+ posts]

Now Nick to me it sounds like setting up a mic array with roughly 30 DAC channels would be a "laundry list of data and white papers all over the place to try to prove a point to get people to buy something because of technical data"

For real life testing I based this off of my ear. It souded great and on a TL proved to have a nice range... at least at the dash. Im not out to prove his sub is the best out there or that it is a tank. Im simply not able to find where the two guys could pinpoint failure.

One person had promised me the sub would not last 30secs on 1000wrms. So John allowed me to play several songs at well over 1000wrms at all different ranges. The sub was fine.

Then they complained the sub would not have any output at 70hz, so i did sweeps up to 75hz and it still had substantial output compared to other subs in my testing.

All i am saying is I can not see the problems even when I am forcing the variables.

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

A SQ oriented sub sounding better than an SPL oriented sub? Brilliant!

 

[bumpin buick 5,000+ posts]

A SQ oriented sub sounding better than an SPL oriented sub? Brilliant!

Worded wrong sorry, and SQ sub putting up the same numbers as an SPL sub and sounding better then SPL and SQL subs. The sonance, Z15, and HDC3 are all considered "non-spl subs"

 

[ninjawhiteboy12 10+ year member]

hmm bumin can you get me a link to where you posted the results for the AV? Also do you still plan on havning john make a spec box and testing it in that?

 

[bumpin buick 5,000+ posts]

hmm bumin can you get me a link to where you posted the results for the AV? Also do you still plan on havning john make a spec box and testing it in that?

Here you go hope this helps

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=414812

 

[nastyaudioman 10+ year member]

John is correct about woven leads on one side of the spider. It can cause non linear movement, and possibly coil rock.
If you look at, for example, a TC Sounds single coil sub... they weave the leads on both sides of the spider to keep it linear. One side is obviously not hooked up - but the lead is still woven there.

Did I say it wouldn't? No. I was stating that due to my next statement with the silicone fix.

 

[nastyaudioman 10+ year member]

This message is hidden because NDMstang65 is on your ignore list.

Much better!

Do you always get like this when someone is smarter than you?

 

[nastyaudioman 10+ year member]

Here is my thing. Many and I mean MANY folks stuck up for you on caraudioforum. These guys bought into your "knowledge" and graphs. Yes, on paper many things can look good. I can draw you a time machine if you want Problem I see is that the guys who bought from you on that forum which may only be 3 or 4, but those guys ALL had issues. I do give you repect on your service by refunding the money with no issue. MANY companies won't do that period. I also understand that suppliers can also be a hassel. But the real world hands on testing is what counts and in my eyes your subwoofers aren't performing in the car audio world well with reliability. I will highly recommend you go to the woven leads because silicone on the back of a subwoofer cone does not look good.

Now, you state that on a single 4 ohm woofer that when leads are woven it could cause coil rock. If that is such a huge issue with you and the woofers, are you measuring the silicone being put on the cone to make sure in fact that each globs weigh the same? IMO it looks like crap and cheap not too mention changes the mms and so forth when adding that. So are your parameters before or after the silicone?

As for my other questions that were un-answered, please let me know the many drivers with woven leads that failed with those issues you stated. Also, who uses 100% cotton spiders as well? Are you really using nomex or are your spiders cotton?

I am not bashing you or your product, but you will need to prove these accusations. I will be waiting for your response.

Figured I would repost this since I have no received an answer yet. (Waits)

 

[John_E_Janowitz 10+ year member]

I will highly recommend you go to the woven leads because silicone on the back of a subwoofer cone does not look good.
Now, you state that on a single 4 ohm woofer that when leads are woven it could cause coil rock. If that is such a huge issue with you and the woofers, are you measuring the silicone being put on the cone to make sure in fact that each globs weigh the same? IMO it looks like crap and cheap not too mention changes the mms and so forth when adding that. So are your parameters before or after the silicone?

Woven leads IN the spider greatly reduce the longevity of the wires and spider. As mentioned before they are formed with heat and become brittle, fray, and can spark up. There are many documented cases of this. The flat ribbon type leads on top of the spider are a good option if they can be attached after the forming process so the extra heat is not applied. A combination of sewing and adhesive is required to properly attach them to the top of the spider without them coming off after time. Spiders with any kind of lead wires in or on are not available in the US though. The only way to do it is to bring them from china, taiwan, or attach the leads in house. We're looking for an option to get the flat wire and do this ourselves currently.

Regarding coil rock, the leads in the spider being stiffer due to heat will also create much more force on the spider itself than the leads being sewn onto the top of the spider at a few points. When sewn on top, the wires are still fully flexible and free to move as needed between these points with a minimal amount of force exerted on the spider. This is the best way to do it and many do the same. Look around and you'll find many car audio companies doing this. I saw a couple at bumpinbuick's place.

The silicone may not look perfect, but it works well. Gluing a foam or felt pad underneath looks no better but many do this and I haven't heard complaints about all of them. In reality it is the bottom of the cone that nobody will see, so I don't understand what the real fuss is about. Yes, we have weighed how much we are adding. The silicone when dried adds about 3 grams to the the cone mass. This changes the total cone mass by about 1.25- 1.5% depending on the model. It has no real effect on anything. It is no different again than gluing the foam or felt to the bottom to protect against lead slap noise.

As for my other questions that were un-answered, please let me know the many drivers with woven leads that failed with those issues you stated. Also, who uses 100% cotton spiders as well? Are you really using nomex or are your spiders cotton?

How many drivers have failed exactly I do not know. It is not my job to keep track of every failure that others have. It is my job to address issues we have an prevent known issues. Woven in lead wires do tend to break and that is something I would like to stay clear of. I suggest calling companies like Kicker who have addressed the same issues, or companies like JL who state "The flying lead wires are carefully controlled and strain-relieved without resorting to woven-in lead wires, which can degrade spider performance." They both do not use woven in leads for obvious reasons. You could check with Eclipse and see how many of the TC made drivers had failed due to these issues over the period they were making them.

Yes, we use 100% nomex spiders. If you want I can email you a copy of the sample ticket from Nuway and you could call them to verify what their NX3230 material is.

John

 

[nastyaudioman 10+ year member]

Woven in tinsels are great except they become very brittle throughout the forming process as the spider is formed with heat. I have seen MANY drivers with the woven in leads what have frayed, sparked, and even started 100% cotton spiders on fire. Also in a single VC driver if both wires are on the same side they tend to pull and rock the coil. The sewn on top wires are much better for spider linearity.

Woven leads IN the spider greatly reduce the longevity of the wires and spider. As mentioned before they are formed with heat and become brittle, fray, and can spark up. There are many documented cases of this. The flat ribbon type leads on top of the spider are a good option if they can be attached after the forming process so the extra heat is not applied. A combination of sewing and adhesive is required to properly attach them to the top of the spider without them coming off after time. Spiders with any kind of lead wires in or on are not available in the US though. The only way to do it is to bring them from china, taiwan, or attach the leads in house. We're looking for an option to get the flat wire and do this ourselves currently.
Regarding coil rock, the leads in the spider being stiffer due to heat will also create much more force on the spider itself than the leads being sewn onto the top of the spider at a few points. When sewn on top, the wires are still fully flexible and free to move as needed between these points with a minimal amount of force exerted on the spider. This is the best way to do it and many do the same. Look around and you'll find many car audio companies doing this. I saw a couple at bumpinbuick's place.

The silicone may not look perfect, but it works well. Gluing a foam or felt pad underneath looks no better but many do this and I haven't heard complaints about all of them. In reality it is the bottom of the cone that nobody will see, so I don't understand what the real fuss is about. Yes, we have weighed how much we are adding. The silicone when dried adds about 3 grams to the the cone mass. This changes the total cone mass by about 1.25- 1.5% depending on the model. It has no real effect on anything. It is no different again than gluing the foam or felt to the bottom to protect against lead slap noise.

How many drivers have failed exactly I do not know. It is not my job to keep track of every failure that others have. It is my job to address issues we have an prevent known issues. Woven in lead wires do tend to break and that is something I would like to stay clear of. I suggest calling companies like Kicker who have addressed the same issues, or companies like JL who state "The flying lead wires are carefully controlled and strain-relieved without resorting to woven-in lead wires, which can degrade spider performance." They both do not use woven in leads for obvious reasons. You could check with Eclipse and see how many of the TC made drivers had failed due to these issues over the period they were making them.

Yes, we use 100% nomex spiders. If you want I can email you a copy of the sample ticket from Nuway and you could call them to verify what their NX3230 material is.

John

From the woofer I seen, no possible way it is only 3 grams of silicone. did you weigh each side to make sure the same exact amount is on each side? The felt may weigh a gram at most FYI.

As stated, I have not seen an issue with the woven spiders. I know a lot of subs with these leads and no issues. You are holding steady on the forming process making them brittle but I have yet experienced this. And yes another way is to sew them.

Now back to your statement, " I have seen MANY drivers with the woven in leads what have frayed, sparked, and even started 100% cotton spiders on fire." With such information you are keeping tabs somewhere and would like ot know who.

 

[nastyaudioman 10+ year member]

Tell you what, I am going to leave this alone. I have made my point, and have yet got a true answer back from you with a few questions. Don't worry about it. You do what you do and we will see what happens in the future.

I still have a time machine on paper that looks awesome and it will work, I promise. All of my schematics prove it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Do you always get like this when someone is smarter than you?

Bwahahaha, if only he were.

 

[negative3five 10+ year member]

Are you a idiot dude I have seen plenty of pictures were TC built drivers have failed from the woven leads search you'll see a lot of posts about it I dunno why your even questionin that fact. If the coating then put on addresses the fact why is he gonna stick a pad on their so it looks pretty? I'm sure jon tested the right amount to put on each side and the minute difference isn't gonna induce coil rock.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

From the woofer I seen, no possible way it is only 3 grams of silicone. did you weigh each side to make sure the same exact amount is on each side? The felt may weigh a gram at most FYI.
As stated, I have not seen an issue with the woven spiders. I know a lot of subs with these leads and no issues. You are holding steady on the forming process making them brittle but I have yet experienced this. And yes another way is to sew them.

Now back to your statement, " I have seen MANY drivers with the woven in leads what have frayed, sparked, and even started 100% cotton spiders on fire." With such information you are keeping tabs somewhere and would like ot know who.

Well, considering the many posts on here of TC and other subs that had woven in leads that the spider ripped, the leads broke or both, I would say it was a very common problem. Also, woven in leads affect the compliance curve in ways that are quite undesired, thus the shying away from woven leads and the move to sewn on and sandwiched leads.

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

Who cares about how the silicone looks on the underside of the cone, the fact of the matter is, THIS SUB WORKS JUST FINE and it sounds great.

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

Tell you what, I am going to leave this alone. I have made my point, and have yet got a true answer back from you with a few questions. Don't worry about it. You do what you do and we will see what happens in the future.
I still have a time machine on paper that looks awesome and it will work, I promise. All of my schematics prove it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

John answered your questions/trolling directly and politely. I don't understand what your gripe is with him.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

kennyg - you need to find a counselor. it's pathetic that youve wasted so much of your life posting in these threads, as your revenge for "losing $70", especially after John offered to reimburse you even for that. and also stfu about "im done posting here" since obviously this is one of your big goals in life.

for those that dont comprehend how obsessed kenny is with this situation, I have PM's from him from MONTHS ago when he saw that i posted about getting an AE woofer and he sent me a PM tryign to dissuade my purchase. I can only imagine how many others he has done the same to.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

I'll bet I've saved 10 people or more from going thru what I've gone thru. Not that your failure is acceptable either, but you didn't own it long enough to become dissatisfied with it, or John's lack of CS once you did state publically that you've become unhappy with the drivers performance.

 

[bumpin buick 5,000+ posts]

I will be running some this year. If I complain about anything you will be the first one notified.