6k to Build your Dream System - Help

[PeteNYC 10+ year member]

1-I meant that he doesnt have to pay for a big bass system since all he wants is a SQ setup.

2-I have the Utopias, and run active 3-way, and I'd pay another $800 bux to keep it that way! Anyone that comes into my car spits out of their mouth from the sound out of those utopias. That is ALWAYS the first thing I hear... "What the hell are those, **** that sounds incredible!"

3- He aint comp so it's more for his back seat buddies to get "filled in" to what's playing. lol

4- ZAP ZAP ZAP baby!!! SYMBILINK SYMBILIN SYMBILINK!!! There is NO better to me, those connections aren't just "cool features" they are the new coming in car audio! RCA's will be a thing of the past. It's not even a comparison. Just needs to get better marketing. Zaps are very expensive, but in a SQ vehicle, you need Zaps and the Symbilink connections.

5-Yeah, full interior fibergalss, carpeting, amp rack of course, 1" marine grade birch... go all out!

6- Caps... I know most people hate them, but after I put in my Alumapro 15 farad cap, NO MORE dimming at all, so you can definetly do without it, I just do it as a precautionary measure of minor amounts. Not really needed, no. But he has no new alty in this setup, so it's a patch at best!

7- I have a Stinger 2150, so Iwouldnt recommend that price range for this setup, just to a stab at would it would cost. $50 back in pocket! lol

8- Oh yeah, if he does some of it on his own he can save a fortune as I did and assuming by your knowledge as you did, but he doesn't have any experience and needs to learn as we all did first... then he can play!

I know it's off topic, and I dont want to hi-jack this thread, but can you critique my system that I'll apply here? I just had it decided on (last upgrade) and need some experienced people to see if looks good. I may have missed something, you know?!

Thanks alot... and very good analysis for my post. I agree with most parts, but in the end it's my personal experiences that lead me to certain points. Not that anyone is wrong either, it's that there is a difference of prefered tastes and specific needs.

Here's my arsenal:

HU....Eclipse 8053

AMPS..1-Zapco1000.4 (tweeters and midrange) 1-Zapco350.2 (midbass)2-Zapco1100.1's (4- 12" subs) Zapco 200.2 (rear)... 5 TOTAL AMPS.

FRONT... ...Focal Utopia 165W 61/2"

REAR........Focal K2 Power 61/2"

MIDBASS...2-Image Dynamics IDQ8's

SUBS....4 -12"Image Dynamics IDMAX subs

BOX....1" birch wood (18 ply imported from Finland) Sealed 1.25 cu.ft. PER sub (fiberglassed interior)

EQ/CO... Zapco SLX-4 crossover, Zapco SP7-SL dash Eq, 2 Zapco EQ30SL's All Symbilink cables

CAP.... Alumapro 15 farad capacitor

ALTERNATOR...220 amp Dom irragi alternator

BATTERY... Stinger SP2150

WIRING.... Stinger HP 0 gauge, Stinger 10 gauge for subs, 12 gauge for highs and mids

BIG 3.... under the hood in 0 gauge Stinger HP

DAMPENING....300 feet of Second Skin and Dynamat througout the entire vehicle. 3 layers.

BAFFLES...1/2" MDF plates made for rear doors. IDQ8's in front doors sealed. All woofers mounted in non-hardening model clay.

KICK PANELS... Custom made kicks for tweeters and midrange woofers. Specially made from Sounds Impossible in Highlands NJ. Best kicks you can get!

TUNING... By Bill Acevedo of Sounds Impossible in NJ. ONE OF THE BEST TUNERS ON THE PLANET!!! Has won several awards for his work and SQ Finals at IASCA. Known everywhere! Highly recommend. Very gifted individual.

Good Luck with all your systems!!!

Thanks

PeteyGoesBoom

 

[snb778 5,000+ posts]

Try to just ask this guy if you know him well enough if you could just build it, and he can just guide you through it...at least thats what im doing to save on the labor part. But yea, i guess that does explain the price.

 

[3.5Max6spd 10+ year member]

.
I've provided a state of the art Zapco SX-SL2 crossover/eq. This is the true ingredient that will give your music the incredible sound. It is very expensive, but to me... the best eq/co in the world for the money!!! It is in a league of it's own. A SUPER must!!! Especially since it's inputs will be Symbilink as well. You'll have a 16 volt signal from head unit, to SX-SL2 to amps, ALL THE WAY THROUGH!!! I know you dont understand, but 16 volt is a ridiculous number poducing unimaginable SQ and effect.

Symbilink, although a nice novelty is extremely overated. If you truly believe all you just spewed I need someone like you to take my C2k off my hands. I've a/b it with an Arc amp w/out the fancy Din connection and there's absolutely no audible/performance difference to note as a listener from running rca's vs balanced. Its a solid amp, just not worth the price of admission when you have to cough up $80-100(symbilink) just to run it.

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

Symbilink, although a nice novelty is extremely overated.

exactally my point //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[faulkton 5,000+ posts]

Symbilink, although a nice novelty is extremely overated. If you truly believe all you just spewed I need someone like you to take my C2k off my hands. I've a/b it with an Arc amp w/out the fancy Din connection and there's absolutely no audible/performance difference to note as a listener from running rca's vs balanced. Its a solid amp, just not worth the price of admission when you have to cough up $80-100(symbilink) just to run it.

I know that i noticed a big differnece when i went from regular RCA to the optical inputs on my home theater. What is this symbilink, is it digital or is it basically just super hig volt RCA? What the hell does balanced mean?

 

[Raven 10+ year member]

Symbilink, It's not optical. =) Optical would be the "Noise Free" impossibility because they are impervious to electromagnetic interference a car makes.

IMO, 6Gs should be put more to the install.

* High end Pioneer Premier with auto-time delay, built in crossover network, and high volt preouts.

* Rainbow Profi Vanadium components

* Class A amp to ^

* Single Mag D2 sealed, Q=0.8

* RE 12.1 to ^

* 1/3 octave equalizer

And read every article decware.com has to offer. Get the $20 unversal pass, and read everything. TRUST ME.

 

[PeteNYC 10+ year member]

Here is some literature on SymbiLink and what it does, and why...

It's been said that getting there is half the battle, and with car audio installations this saying equally applies to the audio signal. With enemies like alternator whine, transient distortion and ringing, the path from the source to the amplifier is a noise minefield.

ZAPCO combats these problems with SymbiLink™, the installer's most powerful weapon against noisy installations. SymbiLink™ uses signal strength twice that of conventional RCA (balanced or differential), along with a high quality, fully shielded cable, making the SymbiLink™ Balanced Signal System impervious to noise and distortion.

SymbiLink™ preserves the purity and clarity of your music in any automotive installation.

Everyone has their own opinion, but I truly feel that it DOES make a difference to the point I'll never go RCA again. Every install is different, and there are factors that may allow an audible difference to be heard on one installation and not the other. I physically have heard the audible differences CLEARLY, without predjudice. I really don't care if SymbiLink works or not, but IT DID! Why should I ignore that!

Anyway, a good set of RCA's and a good install with some decent components will never do you wrong either! I just understand that it's not just the wiring, but a 16 volt signal that is being transported to the amps!!! That's double the signal voltage of a standard set of high quality RCA's. There is simply no denying that 16 volts won't make a difference. Why do we all purchase head units with the highest voltage output? My Eclipse 8053 is balanced out 16 volt! I beleive the only ever made. SymbiLink carries that full strength signal to the accepting SymbiLink inputs of the Zapco Reference or Competition line amplifiers, where the signal in delivered strong, full, and much more able to be cleaner and less noisy. Zapco's signal processing, EQ's, crossovers have SymbiLink inputs to maintain a comlpete pure circuit from head unit to processing components to amps without ever dropping it's 16 volt promise.

Good Luck!

PeteyGoesBoom!

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

audison or genesis amps

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

...if you can find them....

 

[MrWizzard 10+ year member]

Here is some literature on SymbiLink and what it does, and why...

It's been said that getting there is half the battle, and with car audio installations this saying equally applies to the audio signal. With enemies like alternator whine, transient distortion and ringing, the path from the source to the amplifier is a noise minefield.

ZAPCO combats these problems with SymbiLink™, the installer's most powerful weapon against noisy installations. SymbiLink™ uses signal strength twice that of conventional RCA (balanced or differential), along with a high quality, fully shielded cable, making the SymbiLink™ Balanced Signal System impervious to noise and distortion.

SymbiLink™ preserves the purity and clarity of your music in any automotive installation.

Everyone has their own opinion, but I truly feel that it DOES make a difference to the point I'll never go RCA again. Every install is different, and there are factors that may allow an audible difference to be heard on one installation and not the other. I physically have heard the audible differences CLEARLY, without predjudice. I really don't care if SymbiLink works or not, but IT DID! Why should I ignore that!

Anyway, a good set of RCA's and a good install with some decent components will never do you wrong either! I just understand that it's not just the wiring, but a 16 volt signal that is being transported to the amps!!! That's double the signal voltage of a standard set of high quality RCA's. There is simply no denying that 16 volts won't make a difference. Why do we all purchase head units with the highest voltage output? My Eclipse 8053 is balanced out 16 volt! I beleive the only ever made. SymbiLink carries that full strength signal to the accepting SymbiLink inputs of the Zapco Reference or Competition line amplifiers, where the signal in delivered strong, full, and much more able to be cleaner and less noisy. Zapco's signal processing, EQ's, crossovers have SymbiLink inputs to maintain a comlpete pure circuit from head unit to processing components to amps without ever dropping it's 16 volt promise.

Good Luck!

PeteyGoesBoom!

The voltage level plays a more important roll in distance really... less noise at long distances, and since the longer the cable, the more resistance, the better it is to have a good signal, but i dont think 16v is nessisary, 8v is probably plenty to get to the trunk of the car w/out probs... but i guess you would have to test it out with a scope and see how much noise it really removes in you're setup.

 

[PeteNYC 10+ year member]

Yes, exactly. Every setup has it's own needs and it's own problems. So, SymbiLink may help one install greatly, and another minimumly. I for one have seen great results, but it may not be the same in another situation because every system is completely different with so many factors going into whether how well it works or not.

 

[LaJit 10+ year member]

I want to say thanks to everone!! You guys are great and have given me a much greater understanding of what I am looking for and the direction to go. It is absolutely amazing what a little bit of research and a lot of pro. input can give you. I will continue to research and get back with some more questions. The truck does not arrive for 2-3 weeks still, but I wanted to have the eq. ready. I will definately start researching installers now. A couple of questions in the interim:

If I purposely left the installation cost out of the 6k, where would you upgrade?

How often does the eclipse 8053 come-up for sale?

Why doesn't more H.U. send out 8-16volts?

Would a hybrid/Mosfet amp (Butler) be better than the Zapco 1000.4 for the front stage?

Do most of the tube amps have a 10-15 sec. warm-up delay?

Can someone describe the audio diff. between the Utopias and Rainbows Van/Profi - from what i have heard from you guys, the utopias are very bright (possible too much as is) and the Rainbows are less so but have a superior mid bass ie. PeteNYC pulling his Utopia MB for Image Dynamics.

What is the added pick-up by bi-amping the front stage as Jack Frost suggested. Is he recomending 2 butler TDB's275 as opposed to 1 - TDB475?

Lastly, Thanks a WHOLE lot to PeteNYC for taking the time to break it all down and help someone who was asking.

Pete, Love the 18-ply Birch - imported from Finland. Made me smile. Again, Thanks !!

 

[Raven 10+ year member]

If I purposely left the installation cost out of the 6k, where would you upgrade?

I would take the extra money and put it for something else, because I'm poor.

How often does the eclipse 8053 come-up for sale?

http://www.ebay.com However many you see is a reflection of how often they go for sale.

Why doesn't more H.U. send out 8-16volts?

Because in all truth, 4volt is the greatest you need for your typical install. Also, it is cheaper to make lower voltage preouts.

Would a hybrid/Mosfet amp (Butler) be better than the Zapco 1000.4 for the front stage?

Preference, guy. Preference. Some people like the sound of tube amps. Listen to a vintage turntable at an antique store and see if you like how it sounds. And yes, almost all of them take a moment for the tubes to warm up.

Can someone describe the audio diff. between the Utopias and Rainbows Van/Profi - from what i have heard from you guys, the utopias are very bright (possible too much as is) and the Rainbows are less so but have a superior mid bass ie. PeteNYC pulling his Utopia MB for Image Dynamics.

Honestly, I think the Rainbows have a far better price / performance ratio, and are less expensive than Focal Utopias anyway. It's debatable, but even Rainbow's SoundLines have held their own against Utopias.

What is the added pick-up by bi-amping the front stage as Jack Frost suggested. Is he recomending 2 butler TDB's275 as opposed to 1 - TDB475?

You have more options as far as crossover settings, and can drop gains if the lows, mids, or highs are too loud.

Lastly, Thanks a WHOLE lot to PeteNYC for taking the time to break it all down and help someone who was asking.

Be wary of any advice beginning "Be wary of".

 

[PeteNYC 10+ year member]

Well, I didint replace my Utopias midbass with IDMAX's because I never had Utopi midbass's! lol I am currently installing Image Dynamics midbass to my 2 way Utopia set, making it a 3 way!

The Eclipse 8053 is available very often on Ebay or some dealers may have some, but they are truly a marvel and dont listen to what anyone ever tells you otherwise on the 8053's! For SQ and pure utter clarity, along with a c/o, eq, par eq, etc... the 8053 is literally top 3 head units of all time... PERIOD!!!!!!

The reason they dont make the 16 volt Head units as often I was told by Eclipse myself, is that in order to make that possible, they have to make the HU passive, meaning no internal power for powering speakers, and the general population hates that. Another reason, is Zapco is the ONLY company I think that has the SymbiLink connections to utilize that function, otherwise you need Eclipse's $120 balanced line adapter, which people will NOT dish out, given they already spent $500 on the 8053.

Another reason, is that most people just are in the RCA world, and dont care about SQ as much as SPL bass, etc. SymbiLink is more a purpose for highs than anything. The market just doent call for it... YET!!! All my friends that hear my system are now compiling their own system, starting with guess what... Zap amps and SymbiLink! Dont get me wrong, RCA'sin a proper install can really sound just as good, but it's less work with the balanced lines.

If you ask me... Zapco is truly the monster of quality amps, though very expensive! Customer service, and product reliability is absolutely the best there is!

What to do with $1800 EXTRA towards components... in the paln I gave you... hmmmmmmm..., I would get a 3 way set, like the Focal Utopia 165W, and bi-amp your highs. a Zapco 1000.4 for your tweets and midrange, then a 360 or 750.2 just for your midbass. Thats about an additional 800-$1000 for the 750, upgraded Utopia set from 2 way to 3 way and install. With the remaining $800, get yourself some custom made kick panels, not that Q-forms crap, but real fiberglassed, custom kicks for $500.. at least with install! Put your midrange and tweete in the kicks, then have your installer build your midbass into your doors, with 3/4" MDF plates, mounted on non-hardening model clay, with deflex pads right behind the drivers in the doors to help with resonating. That'll be a bit of labor as well. With the remaining budget, invest in MORE dampener into the area that need it! The doors, hatch area, floors and roof where reasonable to get to, etc. Since bass is not your true goal, leave all that alone. Bass is something you can get obsessed with... it's NEVER enough! Remember I said that! You are happy today, but will want more later.

Another thing you might consider is a high output alternator. This is always the best upgrade to an electrical system, bar none! Dont forget, you need power to make power!

The Zapco mono EQ-30SL's are also a consideration, but are VERY expensive.

If all is done and tuned, and you dont like it or think it sound better than what you paid for, ALWAYS remeber this... DO YOUR LOCAL RESEARCH and find the BEST **** TUNER in your state, and DRIVE there on a Saturday, and pay him WHATEVER he wants, and you will NOT beleive the difference that mans hands and ears can do to your high end system!!! Dont forget, you now own very expensive, hi fi components that are very sensitive, and there are so many different peices that have to be somewhat compatible that you need a trained, talented person to know what to do and how!!! There are 100 billion different ways to set so many eq,s crossovers, radio settings, etc. Everyone thing effects all the others as well! GET A TUNER! I got my guyat Sounds Impossible NJ, Bill Acevedo is a World Final winner at the 2001 IASCA world finals and is world known as a super SQ guy and tuner/installer! I drive over 2 1/2 hours everytime to see him, and it's well worth it! These guys can make anything sound good... imagine with your sweet system!

The Utopias have a very "bright" tweeter, but is definetly tameable as I did with mine. They sound so sweet when you hit them right. You will not be sorry, although the Rainbows, Iridiums, Boston Acoustics, are al lgreat as well.

You also can move up to the Zapco Competition C2K line... the ultimate in car audio!!! That's another story. But DEFINETLY bi-amp and add another amp for your midbass if you want to spend a bit more!!!

Good Luck my friend, and hope you will hit......."MuSiCaL NiRvAnA"!!!!!!!!

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

pete is leading you in the right direction. get the best **** installer you can find, even if you have to drive a ways to get to him. it will make the biggest difference in the world. off the top of my head, the best two installers ive talked with are dave (aka, audiolife on these forums), and time baille - http://www.hzemall.com - from british columbia.

somone with expierence at world finals SQ would be your best bet - period.

as he was pointing out the folcal two ways, with a dedicated midbass.

i would seriously look into Horn Loaded Compression Drivers. in my case, i own Image Dynamics COMP2 HLCD's - they are big and expnesive, specially JUST for tweeters, but they high end is so incredibly - INCREDIBLY - smooth and crispy. i couldnt believe how awesome a guitar could sound up that loud off a pair of speakers. they are INCREDIBLY efficent, only needing a true RMS of about 30w max. rated at 109db 1w\1m - they will seriously spank the crap out of any CONVENTIONAL tweeter you could buy (cept maybe ribbons or somthing crazy). remember, they are 8ohm drivers.

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com

then couple that with a single 8" dedicated midbass that can play up to around 1.2khz, and down to about 80hz... get a 2 way stereo crossover (lowpass \\ bandpass \\ highpass), and a STEREO 1\3 octave equalizer. that audiocontrol DQXS i posted will do EVERYTHING digitally that you need, and you can even get a remote for it so you can tune your car from the driver seat (wich is freaking awesome) - and it has memory to save your favorite tunings.

i would be looking at the idmax, or the new stereo integrity magnums personally. i would go with a pair of 12's. zapco amps are (like he said) among the best out there - and they would work awesome, but if that din signal cable is the whole purpose, id go with somthing else.

i still think if the install is done correctly, there shouldnt be those kinds of noise\signal problems to begin with.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

m suprised noone mentioned the zed amps....lol for the price i think they are a steal