6.5 vs 8 midbass?

[loudenuff]

I was very skeptical also. That's why mine sat in my garage for almost 2 years before i tried it out. (stupid me)
I can't tell you how it works only that it does. Funny thing is, if i use it on a car with time alignment already adjusted, you have to turn the time alignment off for it to work right, go figure that one out.

It works pretty darn good, Id say in a lot of ways it's on par with the MS-8, within it's limits.

I'm gonna look into it more. Never even heard of it til now.. thanks for the advice man

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

You can have a sub play into midbass if it can. It will still be upfront if it's blended right. Hell some of the more reference woofers will play to 200hz nicely. There are a few only using a woofer and a widebander sounding amazing.

 

[The Camry]

Basically. The way your brain locates low frequencies is by arrival time to your hear. So as long as your door drivers are playing those low frequencies, even if they are much quieter than the sub. It will still sound like its coming from the front of the car.

Its called interaural time difference and its covered in one of the links I sent you.

My concern is actually your sub which I have heard has fantastic lows but doesnt cover the top end as well.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Basically. The way your brain locates low frequencies is by arrival time to your hear. So as long as your door drivers are playing those low frequencies, even if they are much quieter than the sub. It will still sound like its coming from the front of the car.
Its called interaural time difference and its covered in one of the links I sent you.

My concern is actually your sub which I have heard has fantastic lows but doesnt cover the top end as well.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

The ear/brain system locates all frequencies by time arrival, lol. All I'm trying to say is that you don't want to allow any of the lower male vocals through your subs, regardless off time alignment. Your ear/brain system will always pick out that those frequencies are being supplied from a source that is behind you (and playing too high in level, be honest) and working in partnership with two other sources in front of you. This is even very difficult to do when the filter slopes are perfectly matched, and so few ever are. I mean, who RTA's each driver and maps the effect of the applied slope to validate it? Then you have to mate it up with a correctly applied filter on the corresponding driver to do the handoff properly. Only then can you apply your time alignment to attempt to compensate for the effect of lower male vocals pumping under the front stage and from behind you. Turn your head in one direction and the illusion falls apart. Keep the lower registers in the front to begin with, there is less to compensate for (fight with) and the illusion holds up. This is why SQ people try so hard to put subs up front or in a center console. In tight quarters like the inside of a vehicle, lower crossover points are the key to proper power(polar) responses.
S'all I'm sayin, bro. I hear what you're saying, too, though. Honestly. Lots of ways to do things, I'm just trying to cater to his question about playing low up front. It's a good approach.

 

[The Camry]

The ear/brain system locates all frequencies by time arrival, lol. All I'm trying to say is that you don't want to allow any of the lower male vocals through your subs, regardless off time alignment. Your ear/brain system will always pick out that those frequencies are being supplied from a source that is behind you (and playing too high in level, be honest) and working in partnership with two other sources in front of you. This is even very difficult to do when the filter slopes are perfectly matched, and so few ever are. I mean, who RTA's each driver and maps the effect of the applied slope to validate it? Then you have to mate it up with a correctly applied filter on the corresponding driver to do the handoff properly. Only then can you apply your time alignment to attempt to compensate for the effect of lower male vocals pumping under the front stage and from behind you. Turn your head in one direction and the illusion falls apart. Keep the lower registers in the front to begin with, there is less to compensate for (fight with) and the illusion holds up. This is why SQ people try so hard to put subs up front or in a center console. In tight quarters like the inside of a vehicle, lower crossover points are the key to proper power(polar) responses.
S'all I'm sayin, bro. I hear what you're saying, too, though. Honestly. Lots of ways to do things, I'm just trying to cater to his question about playing low up front. It's a good approach.

Oh boy. So yes technically your ear locates all sounds by location but only dominantly up till about 800hz and then it rolls off and Interaural intensity Difference picks up. The exact freq between the two has to do with the width of your head and the wavelength of the freq comparatively.

There were guys in the 90s who had legendary audio cars with midbass and low males freq in the rear quarter panels and 5.25in in the front. In fact I believe its something like 15-25db difference can be had in the ITD range before spl becomes dominant over ITD.

Google the "midbass array revisited" on diyma and youll learn alot. The two big issues that I dont think are ever really addressed are upper harmonics and tactile feelings. Yes, your brain locates sub freq up front if you have drivers up there time aligned properly, however you will physically feel the bass hitting the back of your seat and radiantly transferring to your back. If you lift your back off the the seat. Boom, up front bass like crazy. That's why 8-10s can be so **** effective because the lower registers are physically up front. You can have your sub playing high into 100hz but now your fundamental is at 100hz and suddenly. 200, 400,800. Are being pulled behind as well. Ive seen builds where people deaden and leaden their seats to stop tactile feedback and they have their seats up to absorb harmonics. Thats why to me. Subs sound better with seats up, even with 60% output loss.

As for who looks at electrical slopes and matches them acoustically. ...me. if you want correct phase relationships. Its absolutely necessary unless you use FIR filtering but thats just cheating. [emoji14]

If you eq and measure using spatial averaging. You're head turning theory falls apart. Besides. Our heads rarely turn more than a few degrees when driving anyway. Im not gonna complain because my bass guitars are shifted right when I look all the way at the other car next to me.

Honesty. Not alot of guys put their subs up front. Even the bmw guys are split on using underseat midbass. They dont struggle for upfront bass, they struggle and rebuild their dashes to have room for a MB driver in their center channel. One more driver. More MB spl. Less distortion across drivers.

To the OP. Basically. There are multiple ways of doing things. 8-10s are great but have a low beaming point. 1.25khz and short of a widebander. Your not gonna get a good 2 way that way. There is almost always a ton of fabrication work as well to get a 8 or 10 to fit. Even stock cars with 10in MB (VW) have flex issues in the doors when you put them on proper power.

You can get great sq and midbass with just a 6.5 and 1in tweeter. Some would argue that you'll never have true dynamics for MB on a driver that small but sq is subjective in that regard.

Either way. For a good system. A dsp is absolutely necessary. Your 80prs is a dsp. Just limited to 2 way capability/16 band tuning capability

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

The more I think about it the more complicated I wanna make it (lol) I need to become more proficient with wood working bc in tired of paying for enclosures. And I'd find a lot more satisfaction with those I feel like... t lines I mean. I know they're excellent when made correctly for subs. And midbass is always something I've lacked and longed for... i might as well go all out anyways. I'm looking for several things: clean loud mid bass that matches loud sub bass, loud mid range and loud high range.. I don't want to really lack in mid bass for the fact of it'll have to keep up with a ported 18. I definitely think I want to go for SQ as well... like there's no confusion between spl and SQ. I've had spl with my 10s and my ZCON 15, with barely any focus on the mid stage so I'd like to go the other way plus a loud sub stage this time.. this is probably pretty common goal for anyone doing this. But I'm just emphasizing that I'm not really confused I'm just trying to see how much work goes into doing each route.

That being said, do you think those daytons would do well in t line? What specs do I look for in a t line friendly driver?

I'd say you are better off doing two 10s on each side with a lot of power. You want midbass that thumps your chest when playing kick drums right? Way better off with cone area instead. Those 4s do fine in home audio but are very lacking in a car install especially against an 18.

Everyone's over thinking this way too much.

Tweets and two 10 inch midbass 2 way front active with a lot of power, sealed deadened doors and EQ/Time alignment is all you need.

two fully powered pwx 10s will have midbass ringing for several football fields along with handling up to 4khz fine.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Oh boy. So yes technically your ear locates all sounds by location but only dominantly up till about 800hz and then it rolls off and Interaural intensity Difference picks up. The exact freq between the two has to do with the width of your head and the wavelength of the freq comparatively.
There were guys in the 90s who had legendary audio cars with midbass and low males freq in the rear quarter panels and 5.25in in the front. In fact I believe its something like 15-25db difference can be had in the ITD range before spl becomes dominant over ITD.

Google the "midbass array revisited" on diyma and youll learn alot. The two big issues that I dont think are ever really addressed are upper harmonics and tactile feelings. Yes, your brain locates sub freq up front if you have drivers up there time aligned properly, however you will physically feel the bass hitting the back of your seat and radiantly transferring to your back. If you lift your back off the the seat. Boom, up front bass like crazy. That's why 8-10s can be so **** effective because the lower registers are physically up front. You can have your sub playing high into 100hz but now your fundamental is at 100hz and suddenly. 200, 400,800. Are being pulled behind as well. Ive seen builds where people deaden and leaden their seats to stop tactile feedback and they have their seats up to absorb harmonics. Thats why to me. Subs sound better with seats up, even with 60% output loss.

As for who looks at electrical slopes and matches them acoustically. ...me. if you want correct phase relationships. Its absolutely necessary unless you use FIR filtering but thats just cheating. [emoji14]

If you eq and measure using spatial averaging. You're head turning theory falls apart. Besides. Our heads rarely turn more than a few degrees when driving anyway. Im not gonna complain because my bass guitars are shifted right when I look all the way at the other car next to me.

Honesty. Not alot of guys put their subs up front. Even the bmw guys are split on using underseat midbass. They dont struggle for upfront bass, they struggle and rebuild their dashes to have room for a MB driver in their center channel. One more driver. More MB spl. Less distortion across drivers.

To the OP. Basically. There are multiple ways of doing things. 8-10s are great but have a low beaming point. 1.25khz and short of a widebander. Your not gonna get a good 2 way that way. There is almost always a ton of fabrication work as well to get a 8 or 10 to fit. Even stock cars with 10in MB (VW) have flex issues in the doors when you put them on proper power.

You can get great sq and midbass with just a 6.5 and 1in tweeter. Some would argue that you'll never have true dynamics for MB on a driver that small but sq is subjective in that regard.

Either way. For a good system. A dsp is absolutely necessary. Your 80prs is a dsp. Just limited to 2 way capability/16 band tuning capability

There you go, that's good stuff. You and I are on a lot of the same wavelengths, after all. Thanks for taking the time to type all that out, it's appreciated.
Yeah, I would never recommend a two-way with an 8 or a 10 for the reason that you pointed out, unless it was with a refined widebander like a Jordan or something. The power response of the larger drivers is no good off axis once you get to the 1200-1500Hz like you mentioned. And when I did the 10 in the door, I handed off to a compression driver at 400Hz so it worked beautifully. I could run that front stage down to 30Hz with full authority and would often go without the use of the subs. But when it was time for the subs I still didn't go higher than 50Hz.

Anyway, yeah... what I'm suggesting is simply the pair of 5.25" drivers in each door, four total, crossed over to a pair of 4" or 5.25" coaxials (just single coaxial per left and right) that reside somewhere else. This is tried an true for sound quality setups. Proper polar responses, wide bandwidth, true dynamic range. But why so small for the midbass? Because they're little high excursion monsters but they're musical (underhung), and they won't require a lot of airspace so the enclosure will be simple and easy for OP to pull off. And as I said, they'll be as effective as a single 8" per side which is what he wants. A pair of 8's up front is pretty fun regardless of what can or can't be done with hours of tweaking final acoustical slopes and applying time alignment.

The one point I'm sticking to is that it is best to get most of the work done with proper driver selection and placement before having to get into working magic with DSP. You then put the benefits of the DSP to work in order to approach the realm of impressive and refined, rather than something that is forced and artificial. But I agree, DSP is a must in any case.

Again, good stuff you pointed out there no matter what route OP takes. With everyone's input and ideas,the thread should be helpful to him and others.

And just to help prove that I truly am a fan of powerful two-way setups, here is a link with my current two-way front stage. I run a single sealed 10" with the 6's in the doors, pretty simple. Very ****** audio quality but use headphones and you get the idea. --> http://www.caraudio.com/forums/speakers/595098-about-exodus-anarchy.html

 

[The Camry]

There you go, that's good stuff. You and I are on a lot of the same wavelengths, after all. Thanks for taking the time to type all that out, it's appreciated.
Yeah, I would never recommend a two-way with an 8 or a 10 for the reason that you pointed out, unless it was with a refined widebander like a Jordan or something. The power response of the larger drivers is no good off axis once you get to the 1200-1500Hz like you mentioned. And when I did the 10 in the door, I handed off to a compression driver at 400Hz so it worked beautifully. I could run that front stage down to 30Hz with full authority and would often go without the use of the subs. But when it was time for the subs I still didn't go higher than 50Hz.

Anyway, yeah... what I'm suggesting is simply the pair of 5.25" drivers in each door, four total, crossed over to a pair of 4" or 5.25" coaxials (just single coaxial per left and right) that reside somewhere else. This is tried an true for sound quality setups. Proper polar responses, wide bandwidth, true dynamic range. But why so small for the midbass? Because they're little high excursion monsters but they're musical (underhung), and they won't require a lot of airspace so the enclosure will be simple and easy for OP to pull off. And as I said, they'll be as effective as a single 8" per side which is what he wants. A pair of 8's up front is pretty fun regardless of what can or can't be done with hours of tweaking final acoustical slopes and applying time alignment.

The one point I'm sticking to is that it is best to get most of the work done with proper driver selection and placement before having to get into working magic with DSP. You then put the benefits of the DSP to work in order to approach the realm of impressive and refined, rather than something that is forced and artificial. But I agree, DSP is a must in any case.

Again, good stuff you pointed out there no matter what route OP takes. With everyone's input and ideas,the thread should be helpful to him and others.

And just to help prove that I truly am a fan of powerful two-way setups, here is a link with my current two-way front stage. Very ****** audio quality but use headphones and you get the idea. --> http://www.caraudio.com/forums/speakers/595098-about-exodus-anarchy.html

Interesting idea basically using a small driver array. Though I know patrick Bateman on diyma is a huge proponent of arrays. Ive seen him struggle with cancellation. If the drivers are right next to each other. This may or may not be an issue. Think of the reason phase caps are used. Though, Im not well versed enough to make a solid arguement on it. I do know that two drivers vertically make a wider dispersion pattern than two set horizontally so that may help make a wider stage.

I do see a bit of an issue running multiple small drivers though. Would he wire them as one and tune them as one driver? Depending on their wavelength, this could be an issue. If they are playing low freq (wavelength longer than the cabin) then cancellation nodes will the same and you wont get any weird FR issues but if they are playing high frequencies. Suddenly having two slightly different axis drivers makes a massive difference is spl levels. This is all assuming each drivers enclosure is the same size.

These are all kind of high level concepts though and may not mean anything at all the OP or someone elses install.

Ive heard 50-50 reports on anarchys. "Sound loud but muddy" and inconsistent build quality

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[loudenuff]

Interesting idea basically using a small driver array. Though I know patrick Bateman on diyma is a huge proponent of arrays. Ive seen him struggle with cancellation. If the drivers are right next to each other. This may or may not be an issue. Think of the reason phase caps are used. Though, Im not well versed enough to make a solid arguement on it. I do know that two drivers vertically make a wider dispersion pattern than two set horizontally so that may help make a wider stage.
I do see a bit of an issue running multiple small drivers though. Would he wire them as one and tune them as one driver? Depending on their wavelength, this could be an issue. If they are playing low freq (wavelength longer than the cabin) then cancellation nodes will the same and you wont get any weird FR issues but if they are playing high frequencies. Suddenly having two slightly different axis drivers makes a massive difference is spl levels. This is all assuming each drivers enclosure is the same size.

These are all kind of high level concepts though and may not mean anything at all the OP or someone elses install.

Ive heard 50-50 reports on anarchys. "Sound loud but muddy" and inconsistent build quality

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

So what about an 8 in the door and a wide banded up front on the a pillars? I've seen this on some guys vw on YouTube. Amplified I think it's called. I'm interested in that.

Another question for you both. Keep in mind I still want deep soul rattling bass out of this 18, but should I go sealed or ported? I know ported is a big difference but ported recommends 5-7. Sealed is 4-6. I have like 5.5 cubes, maybe 5.9 before displacements and that's optimal for sealed but still shy of optimal for ported. This is also going to be taking up my whole trunk and tuned low so what would be my best option ?

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Interesting idea basically using a small driver array. Though I know patrick Bateman on diyma is a huge proponent of arrays. Ive seen him struggle with cancellation. If the drivers are right next to each other. This may or may not be an issue. Think of the reason phase caps are used. Though, Im not well versed enough to make a solid arguement on it. I do know that two drivers vertically make a wider dispersion pattern than two set horizontally so that may help make a wider stage.
I do see a bit of an issue running multiple small drivers though. Would he wire them as one and tune them as one driver? Depending on their wavelength, this could be an issue. If they are playing low freq (wavelength longer than the cabin) then cancellation nodes will the same and you wont get any weird FR issues but if they are playing high frequencies. Suddenly having two slightly different axis drivers makes a massive difference is spl levels. This is all assuming each drivers enclosure is the same size.

These are all kind of high level concepts though and may not mean anything at all the OP or someone elses install.

Ive heard 50-50 reports on anarchys. "Sound loud but muddy" and inconsistent build quality

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

You can get those Dayton 5.25" in 8 ohm so he could wire the pair down to 4 ohm in each door. And in the frequency range that I'm suggesting for that pair of drivers in this particular setup, 40Hz through 300Hz, there will be no issues with comb filtering. They will effectively couple as one driver in the door. The coaxials could be in the kick or dash or pillar, whatever is clever. A full wavelength at 300Hz is roughly 3.75 feet so you wouldn't want to move the coaxial much more than half of that distance away from the pair in the door if using shallow slopes, but if you use steep slopes and plan on using time alignment this should not present much of an issue when blending the midbass pair with the coaxials, no matter how far they are separated.
So it would be a walk in the park for a pair of quality coaxials (or components, whatever) to cover 200-300Hz and up. I'm suggesting coaxials in this scenario purely for the point source-like behavior. The sub can reign down terror in the 40-50Hz and below range, while the four 5.25 drivers can remain composed under decent power in their sealed enclosures easily cover everything in between 40-50 through 200-300. Does it make more sense when I lay it out that way?

I did the four 5.25" midbass application in a friend's Accord and it was mighty impressive. Back when MB Quart was the thing.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

So what about an 8 in the door and a wide banded up front on the a pillars? I've seen this on some guys vw on YouTube. Amplified I think it's called. I'm interested in that. Another question for you both. Keep in mind I still want deep soul rattling bass out of this 18, but should I go sealed or ported? I know ported is a big difference but ported recommends 5-7. Sealed is 4-6. I have like 5.5 cubes, maybe 5.9 before displacements and that's optimal for sealed but still shy of optimal for ported. This is also going to be taking up my whole trunk and tuned low so what would be my best option ?

That would be even simpler and can work wonderfully. Look at the Jordan or Fountek full range drivers to start with, they're some of the best Ive heard. The Jordan's especially, just gorgeous.
I'll stay out of the discussion on the 18, I'm way unorthodox on sub setups. Best to go with something that you think will work for your tastes. If going for output, vented is the obvious choice. Just don't tune too high, lol.

 

[The Camry]

So what about an 8 in the door and a wide banded up front on the a pillars? I've seen this on some guys vw on YouTube. Amplified I think it's called. I'm interested in that. Another question for you both. Keep in mind I still want deep soul rattling bass out of this 18, but should I go sealed or ported? I know ported is a big difference but ported recommends 5-7. Sealed is 4-6. I have like 5.5 cubes, maybe 5.9 before displacements and that's optimal for sealed but still shy of optimal for ported. This is also going to be taking up my whole trunk and tuned low so what would be my best option ?

How confident are you in your fabrication skills. Have you at all looked at what it would take to even get proper airspace for an 8 or 10? Thinking in theory is fun but you should really look into if its practical.

The x-18s arent designed for sealed. At all. Sundown site even says so. 18 requires 7cuft ported. Thats for v2 anyway. Jacobs original post about the V1 X series said 4-6 for sealed though so who knows Your best bet might be throw it in the biggest sealed box you can.

I actually think you might have an issue with the 80prs using widebanders. You'd want to cross around the 500hz(higher really) and the 80prs lowest xo point for its HPF is 1.25khz i believe which is dead on for beaming(in theory) for an 8in.

 

[The Camry]

That would be even simpler and can work wonderfully. Look at the Jordan or Fountek full range drivers to start with, they're some of the best Ive heard. The Jordan's especially, just gorgeous.
I'll stay out of the discussion on the 18, I'm way unorthodox on sub setups. Best to go with something that you think will work for your tastes. If going for output, vented is the obvious choice. Just don't tune too high, lol.

80prs wont allow for it. Tang bands and Audible Physics especially have gotten very good reviews for widebanders

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

80prs wont allow for it. Tang bands and Audible Physics especially have gotten very good reviews for widebanders

Yeah, that's a bummer. So the 80prs removed the ability to do three-way? No more network swith on the side?
Yes, Tang Band as well!! The titanium and bamboo cones sound divine!

 

[The Camry]

You can get those Dayton 5.25" in 8 ohm so he could wire the pair down to 4 ohm in each door. And in the frequency range that I'm suggesting for that pair of drivers in this particular setup, 40Hz through 300Hz, there will be no issues with comb filtering. They will effectively couple as one driver in the door. The coaxials could be in the kick or dash or pillar, whatever is clever. A full wavelength at 300Hz is roughly 3.75 feet so you wouldn't want to move the coaxial much more than half of that distance away from the pair in the door if using shallow slopes, but if you use steep slopes and plan on using time alignment this should not present much of an issue when blending the midbass pair with the coaxials, no matter how far they are separated.
So it would be a walk in the park for a pair of quality coaxials (or components, whatever) to cover 200-300Hz and up. I'm suggesting coaxials in this scenario purely for the point source-like behavior. The sub can reign down terror in the 40-50Hz and below range, while the four 5.25 drivers can remain composed under decent power in their sealed enclosures easily cover everything in between 40-50 through 200-300. Does it make more sense when I lay it out that way?

I did the four 5.25" midbass application in a friend's Accord and it was mighty impressive. Back when MB Quart was the thing.

Did you mean that because of phase relationship caused by distance? i understand wavelengths in a broad sense but i cant look at wavelengths and know where my cancellation is gonna be based on reflective surface distance or phase delay based on speaker distance like some guy can