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Doxquzme said:
Or, better yet, run the entire setup active!
Click to expand...
What do you mean? You are probably referring to technology I'm not familiar with. I'm pretty basic at this stuff.

I will, of course, experiment with bypassing the XEC-700, but I am analog guy at heart and I don't really like DSP the same way that I do not use a lot of fancy EQ.

One reason liked my old Alpine CDA units were the only have TWO adjustments, bass and treble.

When I had my old set up I used the Alpine with and w/o an XEC-500. I kept the Sony back then so went with it this time.

OH:: forgot to mention. SWITCHING RCA'S FIXED EVERYTHING UP.

Looks like I just had some dust or dirt perhaps. But, I still think I am mismatched somewhere.

Hey, I measured 10-12v coming out of the XEC-700 with my scope. Does that make sense to you????

My gains are set about half way.
 
The best and simplest way to run your system is to run it one of two ways, neither of which involves the use ot the Sony crossover.

The head unit has 6 dedicated 4-volt preamp outputs, it has all the features you need to cross-passively (using the passive crossovers you already have installed) or actively, dedicated amplified channels to all 4 drivers (channels) and to the sub.

You have 4 drivers and a subwoofer, 5 channels of RCA outs are all you need, but all 6 if you sum the remaining pair for the sub, which is recommended.

You want to do this because you're currently wasting a lot of energy and sound doing it the way you are. It's going to significantly improve the sound (and simplify/enhance your system control, which, after all, is the goal.

Option 1, Passive setup.

You get one of those 6-channel RCAs or use 3 sets of ones you already have and run it passively (using the crossovers you already have installed) as follows.

Front-R/L and rear- R/L RCAs to the four inputs on the Kicker amp. Red is right, the other is left, front and rear designation doesn't matter in this configuration, but you should still make a note which is which for the other option, running the system actively crossed, bypassing your installed crossovers.

The remaining RCAs on the pioneer HU are designated for use with a subwoofer. Run those to the low-level inputs on the subwoofer.

This is the easiest way to set up your system, as it is installed right now.

The 4 channels of the amp are now getting a signal, so you will set the kicker amps' crossovers to so you hook set the crossovers as follows:

1778200422237.png


And wire your two speaker leads from the amp to the L/R speaker leads as follows:
1778200405569.png

Run the subwoofer cahhnel outputs from the head unit, set the HU EQ filters as follows:
LP of 80Hz and a HP as low as you can unless the sub is ported and you know the tuning frquency of the port, then its's 1/2 octave below the tuning frequncy of the sub.

This IS the way to utilize the best sound, best ouput to the comps usinfg the supplied crossovers - and no Sony crossover at all.

You could also set the amplifiers crossovers to off and use the head unit to set the HP filters at 60-90Hz, depending on what sounds best, this is even a better way.
 
Now for the other option.

You do have the option to bypass the crossovers since they are mounted outside, where you can access the wires leading to the midbass and the tweeters, which allows you to bypass the crossovers altogether.

While this option requires the same head unit-to-amplifier connections, it does change all the settings.

In an active setup, you would designate one set of channels (say the front R/L channels from the HU to amp 1 L/R as the tweeter channels, set the crossovers in the head unit for the tweeters, run 20uf capacitors inline to the positive lead on the tweeters, and instead of bridging the amplifier, you would then ru n a new speaker lead to the crossover and instead of running the tweeter off the crossover lead, you would take that lead and splice the new wire lead from the amplifier and run the tweeters individually amplified as the HU designated F/R channels (there is a reason this is important asside from the crossover setting you will need to use in the HU).

I could not figure out the x-over points Alpine uses for those comps, but I am familiar with that tweeter, and I would set the HP filter using a Linkwitz-Riley, if it's available, otherwise whatever 24db the Pio offers, setting the HP filter, x-over point at 3.5k.

Then you take the remaining RCAs from the HU, the L/R rear channels, and run them to the respective L/R amp 2 inputs on the amplifier.

Then remove the lead going to your crossovers, remove the lead coming off the crossovers to the midbass drivers, and splice it into the wire going to your L/R midbass drivers in the doors. Set the head unit where you want the LP to cross over, use Linkwitz-Riley (or what's available) crossover type using a 24db slope at 3.5k for the LP filter on the 5.25 drivers.

And set the sub accordingly.

This is the optimal sounding setup.

Your head unit has all these settings available to set up your system. Why would you not learn how to use them, your leaving really great sound on the floor.

4V/6CH Preamp Outputs + Sub Control: The Pioneer DMH-W3050NEX features three pair of 4.0-volt preamp outputs (Front/Rear/Subwoofer). The unit's front and rear preamp outputs can be faded (front/rear), while the subwoofer preamp output is non-fading. The Pioneer DMH-W3050NEX lets you adjust the subwoofer preamp output's phase (normal/reverse) and volume (+10 to -24).

Crossovers: The DMH-W3050NEX employs high-pass and low-pass crossovers to tailor the head unit to your connected speaker setup.

  • Standard:Allows you to set the high-pass and low-pass crossover network for a standard Front, Rear, and Subwoofer speaker setup using either speaker-level or low-level outputs.
    • HPF: The head unit's -6 to -24dB/octave high pass filter only allows frequencies higher than those in the selected range (25, 31.5, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100, 125, 160, 200, or 250 Hz) to your front and rear speakers through the unit's speaker-level or line-level outputs.
    • LPF: The subwoofer preamp output features an -6 to -24dB/octave low pass filter so only frequencies lower than those in the selected range (25, 31.5, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100, 125, 160, 200, or 250Hz) are output to your connected subwoofer.
  • Network: Allows you to set the high-pass and low-pass crossover network for a complex 3-way speaker system with Highs, Mids, and Sub using low-level outputs only.
    • Highs: The high-pass crossover for your tweeters can be set to 1.25, 1.6, 2, 2.5, 3.15, 4, 5, 6.3, 8, 10, or 12.5 kHz with a -6 to -36dB/octave roll-off.
    • Mids: You can set a high-pass and low-pass crossover from your midrange/midbass drivers. The low-pass crossover can be set to 1.25, 1.6, 2, 2.5, 3.15, 4, 5, 6.3, 8, 10, or 12.5 kHz with a -6 to -36dB/octave roll-off. The high-pass crossover can be set to 25, 31.5, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100, 125, 160, 200, or 250 Hz with a -6 to -36dB/octave roll-off.
    • Lows: The low-pass crossover for your subwoofers can be set to 25, 31.5, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100, 125, 160, 200, or 250 Hz with a -6, -12, 18, or -24 dB/octave roll-off.
EEQ (Easy EQ) + 13-Band Graphic EQ: There are seven stored equalizer curves which you can easily recall at any time. You can choose from - Powerful, Natural, Vocal, Super Bass, Flat, or Custom . The Custom mode allows you to manually adjust the level (+/- 12dB) of each band of the head unit's 13-band graphic equalizer (50, 80, 125, 200, 315, 500, 800, 1.25k, 2k, 31.5k, 5k, 8k, and 12.5k Hz).

Audio Settings: The head unit provides further sound adjustments for your car audio system.

  • Listening Position & Time Alignment: For a better sound-stage you can select your optimal listening position. You can choose from All, Front Left, Front Right, or Front. You can also select to manually fine tune the sound stage, using Digital Time Alignment (DTA) by selecting the distance (0-200") for each individual speaker in the vehicle compared to your listening position.
  • Bass Boost: You can easily boost the subwoofer bass level by using the Bass Boost function. The Bass Boost feature allows you increase the subwoofer level from 0 to +6 (12dB).
  • Loudness: The Loudness function compensates for deficiencies in the low- and high-frequency ranges at low volume. You can set the Loudness to High, Mid, Low, or Off.
  • Speaker Output Level: You can adjust each speaker and sub channel independently from +10 to -24 to best even out the sound in your vehicle.

Each driver is individually amplified, individually crossed, with minimal equipment in the middle; this is the best SQ way to set up your system.

The other advantage this provides you is the ability to control all four drivers independently, from the menus in the head unit, at your fingertips.

It also allows you the very important ability to time align your setup, just a much better option than just getting it "to play" something.

There is another option too, using the amp bridged solely to the 5.25" drivers and using a pair of the HUs speaker leads to power just the tweeters.

Likely, you don't want to hear about that if this last option doesn't appeal to you.

But if it does, let me know, I'll post that up for you as well.

There you go, you're free $135.00 consulatation!!! :ROFLMAO:
 
Doxquzme said:
Now for the other option.

You do have the option to bypass the crossovers since they are mounted outside, where you can access the wires leading to the midbass and the tweeters, which allows you to bypass the crossovers altogether.

While this option requires the same head unit-to-amplifier connections, it does change all the settings.

In an active setup, you would designate one set of channels (say the front R/L channels from the HU to amp 1 L/R as the tweeter channels, set the crossovers in the head unit for the tweeters, run 20uf capacitors inline to the positive lead on the tweeters, and instead of bridging the amplifier, you would then ru n a new speaker lead to the crossover and instead of running the tweeter off the crossover lead, you would take that lead and splice the new wire lead from the amplifier and run the tweeters individually amplified as the HU designated F/R channels (there is a reason this is important asside from the crossover setting you will need to use in the HU).

I could not figure out the x-over points Alpine uses for those comps, but I am familiar with that tweeter, and I would set the HP filter using a Linkwitz-Riley, if it's available, otherwise whatever 24db the Pio offers, setting the HP filter, x-over point at 3.5k.

Then you take the remaining RCAs from the HU, the L/R rear channels, and run them to the respective L/R amp 2 inputs on the amplifier.

Then remove the lead going to your crossovers, remove the lead coming off the crossovers to the midbass drivers, and splice it into the wire going to your L/R midbass drivers in the doors. Set the head unit where you want the LP to cross over, use Linkwitz-Riley (or what's available) crossover type using a 24db slope at 3.5k for the LP filter on the 5.25 drivers.

And set the sub accordingly.

This is the optimal sounding setup.

Your head unit has all these settings available to set up your system. Why would you not learn how to use them, your leaving really great sound on the floor.

4V/6CH Preamp Outputs + Sub Control: The Pioneer DMH-W3050NEX features three pair of 4.0-volt preamp outputs (Front/Rear/Subwoofer). The unit's front and rear preamp outputs can be faded (front/rear), while the subwoofer preamp output is non-fading. The Pioneer DMH-W3050NEX lets you adjust the subwoofer preamp output's phase (normal/reverse) and volume (+10 to -24).

Crossovers: The DMH-W3050NEX employs high-pass and low-pass crossovers to tailor the head unit to your connected speaker setup.

  • Standard:Allows you to set the high-pass and low-pass crossover network for a standard Front, Rear, and Subwoofer speaker setup using either speaker-level or low-level outputs.
    • HPF: The head unit's -6 to -24dB/octave high pass filter only allows frequencies higher than those in the selected range (25, 31.5, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100, 125, 160, 200, or 250 Hz) to your front and rear speakers through the unit's speaker-level or line-level outputs.
    • LPF: The subwoofer preamp output features an -6 to -24dB/octave low pass filter so only frequencies lower than those in the selected range (25, 31.5, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100, 125, 160, 200, or 250Hz) are output to your connected subwoofer.
  • Network: Allows you to set the high-pass and low-pass crossover network for a complex 3-way speaker system with Highs, Mids, and Sub using low-level outputs only.
    • Highs: The high-pass crossover for your tweeters can be set to 1.25, 1.6, 2, 2.5, 3.15, 4, 5, 6.3, 8, 10, or 12.5 kHz with a -6 to -36dB/octave roll-off.
    • Mids: You can set a high-pass and low-pass crossover from your midrange/midbass drivers. The low-pass crossover can be set to 1.25, 1.6, 2, 2.5, 3.15, 4, 5, 6.3, 8, 10, or 12.5 kHz with a -6 to -36dB/octave roll-off. The high-pass crossover can be set to 25, 31.5, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100, 125, 160, 200, or 250 Hz with a -6 to -36dB/octave roll-off.
    • Lows: The low-pass crossover for your subwoofers can be set to 25, 31.5, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100, 125, 160, 200, or 250 Hz with a -6, -12, 18, or -24 dB/octave roll-off.
EEQ (Easy EQ) + 13-Band Graphic EQ: There are seven stored equalizer curves which you can easily recall at any time. You can choose from - Powerful, Natural, Vocal, Super Bass, Flat, or Custom . The Custom mode allows you to manually adjust the level (+/- 12dB) of each band of the head unit's 13-band graphic equalizer (50, 80, 125, 200, 315, 500, 800, 1.25k, 2k, 31.5k, 5k, 8k, and 12.5k Hz).

Audio Settings: The head unit provides further sound adjustments for your car audio system.

  • Listening Position & Time Alignment: For a better sound-stage you can select your optimal listening position. You can choose from All, Front Left, Front Right, or Front. You can also select to manually fine tune the sound stage, using Digital Time Alignment (DTA) by selecting the distance (0-200") for each individual speaker in the vehicle compared to your listening position.
  • Bass Boost: You can easily boost the subwoofer bass level by using the Bass Boost function. The Bass Boost feature allows you increase the subwoofer level from 0 to +6 (12dB).
  • Loudness: The Loudness function compensates for deficiencies in the low- and high-frequency ranges at low volume. You can set the Loudness to High, Mid, Low, or Off.
  • Speaker Output Level: You can adjust each speaker and sub channel independently from +10 to -24 to best even out the sound in your vehicle.

Each driver is individually amplified, individually crossed, with minimal equipment in the middle; this is the best SQ way to set up your system.

The other advantage this provides you is the ability to control all four drivers independently, from the menus in the head unit, at your fingertips.

It also allows you the very important ability to time align your setup, just a much better option than just getting it "to play" something.

There is another option too, using the amp bridged solely to the 5.25" drivers and using a pair of the HUs speaker leads to power just the tweeters.

Likely, you don't want to hear about that if this last option doesn't appeal to you.

But if it does, let me know, I'll post that up for you as well.

There you go, you're free $135.00 consulatation!!! :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...


They should hire you over the bot, Hal.

I will play around with the set up some and report back. I agree I have power left on the table and it is being choked somewhere.

My philosophy has always been to have discreet components for every function, for example, let the receiver just produce output, have the crossover unit cross the frequencies and have the amplifier just amplify.

I did not consider bi-amping until now but this is in theory possible with the 4 channel kicker and the Sony or the way that you mentioned which is a bit more complicated.

I will have to study your response some more. Once I get done moving, I can take it apart again in my shop at home and go through it again.

Right now, I need to pack up!!!
 
I bypassed the Sony. The way that a AI assistant described it was that I was mixing hardware from different generations of audio equipment. The crossovers on the Pioneer are more granular and give me a lot more headroom. Let’s see how much I can dial this in.
 
pisto said:
I bypassed the Sony. The way that a AI assistant described it was that I was mixing hardware from different generations of audio equipment. The crossovers on the Pioneer are more granular and give me a lot more headroom. Let’s see how much I can dial this in.
Click to expand...
Doxquzme said:
Glad we could help you out. :)
Click to expand...
Let me ask you this: I am currently running the Type R 5 1/4"s at 65W RMS MAYBE because I am only using one side of the 4 channel amp.

I have more headroom in the speakers now that I have the Pioneer hooked directly to the amp. I think I am running into distortion because there is too much bass getting into the speakers - hence the need for a HPF crossover.

Let's say I am running the crossover at 125hz or 160hz or whatever with the maximum decibel dropoff.

If I am still getting distortion through those components as in vocals getting muddied and drowned out, etc ("What If" by Creed is a banger I use to tune with) HOW AM I EVER SUPPOSED TO RUN THOSE THINGS AT 100W RMS WHICH IS WHAT THEY ARE RATED?????? Clearly those little speakers aren't designed to handle bass frequencies at 100W RMS. BUT they are designed to handle SOMETHING at 100W RMS right??????


My point is these things SHOULD BE BEGGING FOR MORE at 65w RMS. 65w RMS SHOULD BE A WALK IN THE PARK FOR THESE SPEAKS RIGHT???????
 
pisto said:
Let me ask you this: I am currently running the Type R 5 1/4"s at 65W RMS MAYBE because I am only using one side of the 4 channel amp.

I have more headroom in the speakers now that I have the Pioneer hooked directly to the amp. I think I am running into distortion because there is too much bass getting into the speakers - hence the need for a HPF crossover.

Let's say I am running the crossover at 125hz or 160hz or whatever with the maximum decibel dropoff.

If I am still getting distortion through those components as in vocals getting muddied and drowned out, etc ("What If" by Creed is a banger I use to tune with) HOW AM I EVER SUPPOSED TO RUN THOSE THINGS AT 100W RMS WHICH IS WHAT THEY ARE RATED?????? Clearly those little speakers aren't designed to handle bass frequencies at 100W RMS. BUT they are designed to handle SOMETHING at 100W RMS right??????


My point is these things SHOULD BE BEGGING FOR MORE at 65w RMS. 65w RMS SHOULD BE A WALK IN THE PARK FOR THESE SPEAKS RIGHT???????
Click to expand...
It's difficult to actually assess this without knowing the exact model of the speakers in use, as the type "R" series range from 55 to 100 watts RMS.

That said, the "R" series has always been fairly capable.

I would confidently say that you should be able to push at the very least, RMS, and likely closer to RMS plus 25% if the proper HP filter is used.

I would also say that even for a 5.25" driver, 90-100Hz is the absolute highest I would set a HP filter for use as a midbass.

What's the point of going any higher, more wattage, and less frequency response?

Not a trade-off I'd opt for.

It can also state that, to your "POINT", you may be clipping the signal, and that is the distortion you're hearing, not them being overpowered. ;)

I ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS have an extra 25%-to 50% reserve power on board for just that reason, no clipping and adequate headroom.

My TM8s are going to get about 225x2, my Xcelsus XXM425s, 125x2, my BlieSMAs beryilium tweeters, 125x2, and then de-tuned as needed, but the power is there if needed.

I'd consider getting a Recoil MST-1 and see where the distortion is coming from. Unless you have a good working knowledge of how to use an oscilloscope, I'm lazy, love my MST-1

As for the technology mismatch thing, not really, just redundant, as your head unit is more than capable, and it's one less item in the signal path, always a good thing if it's not needed

I'd test this out by bridging that amp, test it, still sounds bad, try a different set of speakers, and see if it is the amp or the speakers that are distorting.
 
I disagree with your philosophy about sacrificing wattage for frequency response. 90-100hz is like woofer to subwoofer range. We are talking about tough but tiny mids handling, yes, as much wattage as they cleanly can. I get it, I am quality concerned here but already the sound quality of this build blows away just about anything put into a production vehicle except perhaps the very highest end factory systems. The sub/radiator combo can take on some of those frequencies that aren't making it out of the Type-Rs

But, let's remember. The conversation is never over. and, this is ultimately about our own preferences and individual goals. That's why building these systems is so much fun.

And, at least where I am, the car is one of the few places I can truly listen to music as loud as I want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have the HPF set at 160hz at -24db out of the pioneer. I have -8db on the tweets. I'm not going to go active at this time.

Everything I've seen says these components can handle 100w RMS and this is why I remember I bought them now something like 17 years ago. I never wanted to blow another speaker.

I'll be back, but for now it's sounding pretty good. Now for my drive from NY to Texas!
 
Apologies if it came off snarky; I can sound that way at times.

To a degree, it's a preference, and actually, the trade-off I noted is only valid to a point w/regard to the increased wattage capability (diminishing returns), but w/regard to the frequency band, I would reiterate: it's 100% on point.

One of the benefits of a "sound" educational instructor who insisted on delving into physics, over and above what was required for the sound engineering certs he was signing off on, was that at the end of the day, aside from personal bias, the rest of this is 100% applied physics and engineering.

100Hz - 150Hz (lower midrange to 250Hz) represents the critical upper-bass to midbass frequencies, which are 100% responsible for providing a smooth, warm transition from lower midrange to high bass and another transition to mid to lower bass and infrabass frequencies that our sub is tasked with.

When recording (mixing) for the end listener, these frequencies represent the degree (+/-) of the "fatness" band, which creates the solid but warm sound of how a kick drum should sound, the "thump" of a great bass guitar before it climbs into the midrange frequencies, etc.

Midbass freq. falls into the 80-250Hz range.

You will never get a 10"-18" true low-frequency driver to sound as good at 100Hz to 150Hz as a great 5.25" - 8" driver can, it's physics (and yes, there will always be exceptions, keep'n it relative to this scenario).

To your point, you can take that 100-150Hz band and task your subwoofer with that duty, but then you have it covered by a less capable driver (for that band) that's not really designed for it, degrading that band of sound.

By the same token, the physical difference in size that changes the sound reproduction (characteristics) of a low-frequency driver as the frequency goes up, degrades a smaller driver as the frequency goes down.

Sound signatures, the characteristics of how a particular driver reproduces specific frequencies that are assigned to it, cannot be "EQ'd" out.

It's also important to note that the standard (THX) for setting one's subs to 80Hz or below is because the brain (ear) has trouble localizing frequencies in and around that 80Hz reference point.

When you go below 80Hz, your brain pretty much loses virtually all localization of where that sound is coming from, which, for subs, is desirable.

Go above it, and your brain starts to automatically key in on where the sound is coming from, which, for subs, is definitely undesirable.

Setting your subs to 160Hz to pick up the slack (which, if you're not doing, creates a significant hole in that critical band) creates a significant pull to that location, which in turn, degrades (kind of ruins) the staging up front in a significant way, very undesirable.

So, one's preference may determine how you approach this, absolutely, but it does not change the physics and the "sound" results; it simply satisfies the goal, of which there may be an issue to begin with.

Cart beofre the horse?

When what is creating this situation, the source of the issue isn't identified or simply can't be for whatever reason, then eliminated from the criteria, all corrections made that seem to correct it are not corrections; they are foundational supplementations to the original problem.

Simply changing the equation to satisfy a predetermined expectation (want) without really addressing the problem at its core, IMHO, leaves you with the fruit of the poisonous tree.

It's really not a solution I would be satisfied with, but I've got some ADHD issues for sure.

As for the rest, the math is "sound"... ;)
 
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