Need opinion on good 3000+ amp

[metalheadjoe 10+ year member]

I think the issue here is in how everyone thinks damping factor works or is calculated and/or how it's relevant. Come with me on a journey of fucked up, redneck, Basshead, science!

CRAZY SIMPLE EXAMPLE BELOW, I'VE GOT MY FIRE SUIT ON:

OK, damping factor can most easily be compared to a Macpherson strut.

This is where you lost my attention, and also a great parallel to why most are rolling their eyes at this conversation.

Why say "macpherson strut" rather than just saying a strut? It's because you want to sound knowledgeable and superior to those who understand struts but haven't heard of macpherson. It would not change your point if you said "strut". Nobody who has ever replaced a strut has called it a "macpherson strut". Go to your local parts store and ask for one; let me know how it goes.

That's also why these two keep arguing. Neither @Buck or @hispls are going to concede. It's a p*ssing match at this point.

The desire to feel superior is getting in the way of sharing knowledge.

 

[metalheadjoe 10+ year member]

If you want a great 3K amp then get the Orion HCCA3K. It is a nasty amp.

The SPLx? Big D's dyno video makes it tempting, but I would not recommend Orion. I emailed orion and asked to purchase a new bass knob for my hcca5k, and they said they don't have any and sent me an amazon link to a universal skar bass knob. HCCA amps cost a premium, and I don't think the customer support is sufficient for what I paid.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

The SPLx? Big D's dyno video makes it tempting, but I would not recommend Orion. I emailed orion and asked to purchase a new bass knob for my hcca5k, and they said they don't have any and sent me an amazon link to a universal skar bass knob. HCCA amps cost a premium, and I don't think the customer support is sufficient for what I paid.

I hear ya. I'll take my SIA3500 and be happy. 3,500 watts @ 1 ohm and 3,000 watts @ 2 ohms. That's good enough for me. It's also small and affordable.

 

[spokey9]

It's pretty sad seeing what Orion has become nowadays...back when I was really into building systems Orion was the sh!t

 

[metalheadjoe 10+ year member]

It's pretty sad seeing what Orion has become nowadays...back when I was really into building systems Orion was the sh!t

I briefly owned two XTR2500's, and they worked good enough to make me splurge on an HCCA. I didn't ask for a warranty bass knob; I asked where I could purchase a new one.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Why say "macpherson strut" rather than just saying a strut? It's because you want to sound knowledgeable and superior to those who understand struts but haven't heard of macpherson.

I don't really know how a strut works either way so I just ignored that.

Not sure what there is to concede here. I've posted several links explaining damping factor and its (lack of) importance and apart from some anecdotes which lack any details nobody has offered any contradictory evidence.

I emailed orion and asked to purchase a new bass knob for my hcca5k, and they said they don't have any and sent me an amazon link

A friend of mine blew up a bunch of those new HCCA subs several years back and wound up in the same boat where recone kits were unobtainable and the few dealers who were sitting on some were holding out for outrageous prices. I would avoid woofers with proprietary or oddball dimension parts in general, and new-Orion has a dismal track record with supporting products beyond a couple years.

Those amps they sold made way over rated power at least but customer service isn't a selling point on anything they offer. I'd probably take a gamble on new old stock of one of the big ones if the price was right.

 

[metalheadjoe 10+ year member]

I don't really know how a strut works either way so I just ignored that.

Not sure what there is to concede here. I've posted several links explaining damping factor and its (lack of) importance and apart from some anecdotes which lack any details nobody has offered any contradictory evidence.



A friend of mine blew up a bunch of those new HCCA subs several years back and wound up in the same boat where recone kits were unobtainable and the few dealers who were sitting on some were holding out for outrageous prices. I would avoid woofers with proprietary or oddball dimension parts in general, and new-Orion has a dismal track record with supporting products beyond a couple years.

Those amps they sold made way over rated power at least but customer service isn't a selling point on anything they offer. I'd probably take a gamble on new old stock of one of the big ones if the price was right.

The amps they sold a few years ago before they went dry?

 

[mat3833 10+ year member]

This is where you lost my attention, and also a great parallel to why most are rolling their eyes at this conversation.

Why say "macpherson strut" rather than just saying a strut? It's because you want to sound knowledgeable and superior to those who understand struts but haven't heard of macpherson. It would not change your point if you said "strut". Nobody who has ever replaced a strut has called it a "macpherson strut". Go to your local parts store and ask for one; let me know how it goes.

That's also why these two keep arguing. Neither @Buck or @hispls are going to concede. It's a p*ssing match at this point.

The desire to feel superior is getting in the way of sharing knowledge.

Sorry, my first car was a 1974 super beetle. It had a "Macpherson strut" front end. It's always stuck with me. I also haven't bought a strut, I buy springs and dampers separately. A strut is just the combined spring/damper/mount package. I also avoid my local parts places like the plague. They can't tell the difference between a Socket wrench and a spark plug...

I don't have a superiority complex. I am very much aware of my knowledge most of the time, and if I'm not completely sure I either state as such before I speak or I research. I'm not trying to impress anyone on the internet, I don't have time for that. I'd rather impress my wife and get my balls fondled.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm having a discussion. Both have good points. Sure, I may share the same opinion as one but that doesn't make me/him right. Amplifier design is not something I fully understand, but people MUCH smarter than I have written alot about damping factor at length and how it's basically useless.

If you haven't noticed, I'm having 2 seperate conversations. One with each person. They both have their merits, and I find both rather entertaining.

Matt

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

The amps they sold a few years ago before they went dry?

Yes, the red ones they sold 3 or 4 years back. Favorable dyno results and I saw a few around this area that guys seemed to like.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

I don't really know how a strut works either way so I just ignored that.

Not sure what there is to concede here. I've posted several links explaining damping factor and its (lack of) importance and apart from some anecdotes which lack any details nobody has offered any contradictory evidence.



A friend of mine blew up a bunch of those new HCCA subs several years back and wound up in the same boat where recone kits were unobtainable and the few dealers who were sitting on some were holding out for outrageous prices. I would avoid woofers with proprietary or oddball dimension parts in general, and new-Orion has a dismal track record with supporting products beyond a couple years.

Those amps they sold made way over rated power at least but customer service isn't a selling point on anything they offer. I'd probably take a gamble on new old stock of one of the big ones if the price was right.

I know how you are, sometimes, and I wish you weren’t a d*ck to me when you disagreed. You’ve done this with box tuning before, which is 100% subjective, and subwoofer “breaking in”, which is debatable for sure. And I’m not saying I’m more right than you on damping factor, here I’ve just stated my experiences.

This is a serious question, just a mathematical technicality- what happens if your damping factor is 0? What if it’s 0.1? And what if you’re outside of the frequency band of your inductors on your full bridge amp, if it’s one that plays 20 hz to 20 kHz? Like some amps don’t have that frequency range, so if you use a full spectrum amp instead of one that’s only designed to play bass, wouldn’t that make the internal components more likely to be tuned outside of the harmonics of bass to some degree? You know more about me than amps, and I’m not denying that, so I’m technically curious. It seems like there could be a higher possibility for harmonic problems with equipment, maybe, if you’re playing bass only through an amp with wide frequency range components, like how a port is tuned and is a resistor, of sorts, but only works at a limited bandwidth.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Sorry, my first car was a 1974 super beetle. It had a "Macpherson strut" front end. It's always stuck with me. I also haven't bought a strut, I buy springs and dampers separately. A strut is just the combined spring/damper/mount package. I also avoid my local parts places like the plague. They can't tell the difference between a Socket wrench and a spark plug...

I don't have a superiority complex. I am very much aware of my knowledge most of the time, and if I'm not completely sure I either state as such before I speak or I research. I'm not trying to impress anyone on the internet, I don't have time for that. I'd rather impress my wife and get my balls fondled.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm having a discussion. Both have good points. Sure, I may share the same opinion as one but that doesn't make me/him right. Amplifier design is not something I fully understand, but people MUCH smarter than I have written alot about damping factor at length and how it's basically useless.

If you haven't noticed, I'm having 2 seperate conversations. One with each person. They both have their merits, and I find both rather entertaining.

Matt

I’ve read a lot with the final damping factor with your speaker, I’ve seen a ton of literature that there’s differences from like 0-10 final damping factor in your actual system, and that once you get to around 10 that anything over 10 doesn’t matter, like the difference between 10-1000 final factor is negligible. The more we chat or argue or whatever about it, the more it seems like maybe damping factor matters more if there’s a risk your amp components are of lower quality or cheaper quality.

There’s like amp classes, where manufacturers make similar sub amps that do similar things that are all in competition with each other. I think damping factor would be a more relevant or usable stat when comparing certain manufacturers to each other or comparing different 3000 watt-ish amps within the same manufacturer. Like SQ has their S and Q series amps. The S has a damping of 100 and the Q has a damping of 250. Both amps are rated at the same power, but the 250 damping amp is more expensive. Same with Sundown. I’d be willing to be the SIA and SFB’s have around a 100 DF, while the Salt has a DF of 400.

The Salt seems to be the superior sub amp that Sundown has, and the damping factor is quite high at 400, and I can’t help but think that means something. For doing what I do, which is usually being brutal on amps trying to play 20 hz while tuned high enough to try to play 65-80, I’d totally buy the higher damping factor amps from either SQ or Sundown. You see what I mean? Why even make the Salt if the SIA’s wattage is just a good? Why would SQ have a less expensive amp with a DF of 100 and a more expensive amp of 250, when both the same wattage output? Who would buy the 250 DF amp if DF isn’t a factor? Why would SQ even make the amp? I come from a bass head background, so like the amps I see are the more common sort of “loud” companies, not really SQ oriented companies.

 

[deez283 10+ year member]

It's pretty sad seeing what Orion has become nowadays...back when I was really into building systems Orion was the sh!t

I would take "the newer HCCA amps" from a couple years ago over any of the "Hay Day HCCA's"

From what I see the old school HCCA amps don't even do rated power, They were also not reliable for me..
I'd take the XTR amps over HCCA line if were talking Old School amps.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

‘Power supply input and output impedance are used to verify the supply’s stability and dynamic performance when subjected to various loads.‘

‘The output voltage of the supply at no load will remain constant until a load is connected and the current starts flowing. The voltage drop at the output is dependent on the output current as well as the output impedance. This impedance is often affected by the components at the output regulator and filter stage of the power supply, and largely influenced by the capacitors and inductors.’

‘However, the output impedance is a factor of the feedback loop and the regulated power supply works more or less like an amplifier with feedback. And the same principles that apply to the feedback design in amplifiers are similar to that in the regulated power supply. The effectiveness of power supply regulation is dependent on the magnitude and frequency variations in the load, and the low impedance helps maintain a stable output regardless of these changes.’

Output Impedance

The output impedance is the ratio of change in output voltage to change in load current. Click here to learn more

www.sunpower-uk.com

^^^This was my point with half bridge vs full bridge power supply, and their relative places of components within the circuit, with how full bridge loads are “surrounded” by the mosfets. The stress on the mosfets is going to change differently between the two types of amps, due to the nature of the circuit during high stress situations (looking at this from a “I want maximum bass music” perspective):

^^^Those “loops” have inherently different up and downsides, it seems. Seems like the half bridge power supply might help control fluctuations better, if the power supply can handle the current changes better than the mosfets can.

‘The effectiveness of power supply regulation is dependent on the magnitude and frequency variations in the load, and the low impedance helps maintain a stable output regardless of these changes.‘

Low impedance helps maintain a stable output, I guess, to an extent. That’s why it seems, to me, again IMO, that the low output independence helps dampen the electrical changes from sub-load.

So, if situations arise where the sub’s movement becomes too much stress on the amp, then it seems like a low impedance output would have a higher capacity to absorb or dampen serious electrical fluctuations. Lower output impedance may indicate an amp’s higher ability to handle wild electrical changes from the movement of the load. If you have voltage drops in your 12v and an amperage increase along the board + your sub unloads, that might = a higher chance of circuit protect from the inability to dampen those major electrical swings. Like trying to push/pull too much current through the amp, causing instability, because it seems that the frequencies being played can have quite different stresses on the amp, overall.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

I wish you weren’t a d*ck to me when you disagreed.

Yeah, well, when you make vague claims and then refuse to fill in details when pressed I feel that I'm being lied to and that's a hot button for me. Notice you still haven't posted up the damping factors of all of the shitty amps you claim to have researched and tested.

what happens if your damping factor is 0

I don't think you can get zero since that would require dividing by zero somehow. As far as what a very high output impedance amplifier looks like driving speakers you can look to the performance of tube amps. Output impedance of tube amps are extremely high and damping factors of those systems are typically low single digits. People generally think that tube amps sound pleasant.

You're really trying to delve into taking Richard Clark's money territory here with all of this, nobody has yet because run within their limitations and EQ'd to be even nobody can hear the difference between two solid state amplifiers side by side.

maybe damping factor matters more if there’s a risk your amp components are of lower quality or cheaper quality.

I'm pretty confident you can build a shitty sounding or unstable amp with a very low output impedance. Damping factor has nothing to do with that, nor does full bridge. MMats has been making 1/2 ohm stable full bridge amps for ages now and they seem really rock solid.

Why even make the Salt if the SIA’s wattage is just a good?

Because there's a sucker born every minute and people assume that just because there's a higher price tag (and some big number in front of a 1970s meme spec) on a product they're justified in paying whatever sticker price.

If you're ready to take Richard Clark's money it'll be an easy 10 grand for you if you can figure out how to hear the difference between two solid state amps.

There are certainly some valid reasons to buy better built amps but played within their limitations and with EQ it's not that you're going to hear the difference.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

power supply,

We're not talking about power supplies, we're talking about audio amplifiers, and the schematic you posted is not an audio amplifier.