XXX vs. MX

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

But BBP says..... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

And this thread, my friends, is a shining example of why I stick to SPL competitions.
I have the objectivity of an SPL meter that is consistent across the board instead of having 1 person tell me that another driver "sounds better" than the other because of either 1) their personal opinion or 2) because some T/S spec sheet and a computer program told them so.

Please try to tell me that you can guarantee higher SPL performance based off a T/S sheet, then I'll laugh at you and show you my test results with numerous "SPL-oriented" woofers.

From a theoretical standpoint, everything can be predicted once an accurate working model is created. There just isn't one right now.

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

From a theoretical standpoint, everything can be predicted once an accurate working model is created. There just isn't one right now.

Nor can there ever be one.

Way too many variables involved.

 

[Brian Owens 10+ year member]

I will be on a cruise next week. But I think I am banned from Rice killers. . .

As far as 140-145 dB being loud, yes it is pretty loud, but it seems like now every time I install subs for someone that do under 140, it seems like something is wrong and I am always afraid the customer will not be happy //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I love listeing to music with ear plugs in. I don't really like 150+ "loud" on my ears, I just like to feel it!!!

Brian

 

[95stroked1500 10+ year member]

Thankyou for the explanation 95stroked.
I guess what Im missing at this point is, are you saying this process is not accounted for with American made subwoofers? If this subtle nuance to speaker design is so necessary as to render specialists in training for years, and American companies cant get it right, why do we have so many companies that build such musical subwoofers? I wont get into any US vs European arguements, but it seems anyone arguing American manufacturers cant make a top notch SQ sub are simply biased, and wrong. No offense to your friend, everyone has a bias. Too bad his wasn't made more positive, but sadly I understand... we Americans can be such d*cks. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Again, Im no subwoofer designer, but it seems to me a technological advance like BL optimization (American invention) would make a more audible difference, across a wider spectrum of install possibilities, than would subtle changes to the spider coatings. But then, as stated in this thread (by myself and others), a table-top BL curve isn't always preferred. *shrug* My point is everything has its place.

Im confident your European friend would think one of his hand built subs sounds superior to a driver who factually outputs less distortion, at any/all levels... but then the arguement over whether SQ is subjective or not comes up. Who cares. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Im sure your friend will make a comfortable living tweaking spiders, and American companies will continue improving their designs as well, and the vast majority of car audio 'enthusiasts' will still go out and buy whatever their cousin tells them "bumps the hardest".

Im not sure I completely agree, but again I do thank you for explaining your position better.

i think it comes down to if the person is building because they're after the almighty $, or if they're doing it to produce as close to perfect acoustical reproduction as they possibly can. rather than just american or european.

one reason i think the hobbyist can sometimes do better work than the pro. one's 110% devoted to producing the product and it shows. where the other is just spitting a product out there to make a buck and it shows.

then again, how many "american" companies sub contract their high end subs and components to europe? a good amount. look at all the vifa/scan, dyn, morel, etc built drivers that do or had american labels on them.

there are good american builders, don't get me wrong. there are just A LOT of american builders that are not as good as the few. and there's those that are one track minded that if they can't model it, it doesn't work. and that is where those that employ that mind set are wrong.

any one who thinks they can computer simulate up a wonder speaker, is going to have driver failures and performance let downs when it comes to real world use.

take treo cxt for example. that thing was in R&D for years. they'd plug away on their simulations, build it, test it, ..... didn't perform as good as they thought or wanted. back to the drawing board. again and again. and any real company does that.

there are many things just not dialed yet in modeling programs. that's why you design the best you can, build, test, record info, redesign, build, tweek, and so on. and that's where a good speaker engineer excels. kind of like a pro racer vs a newbie driving a car. both are capable of driving the car. one is going to know how to compensate for the corners, rough roads, etc, a lot better than the other.

it's just how far they are willing to take it to perfection. like i said, it's that last 10% that is most critical. but it's that last 10% that is most time consuming. and 99.9% of people will never know that the speaker they just bought is only 90% of what it could be.

from my view point of what i see, americans are too bull headed and refuse to accept what they don't know or don't understand, or to veer away from what they were taught in the books.

who ever it was who started the trend of tiny boxes for spl, they weren't afraid to try something outside the bun. while everyone else were full bore bigger box, bigger port is better. cause it models that way on the simulation program and mathmatically says so.

i have seen things that have totally blew me away. because accroding to modeling of the thiel/small parameters, what i was hearing wasn't possible. but the design defied what i thought i knew.

i've just had some experiences that got me away from being on the mind set of that purist scientific/physics/modeling type. it has it's place, it's just not the 10 commandments carved in stone.

some of the subs my teacher helped design won awards in their day. for SQ in the 12v industry. and even though it was an american company designed state side, i will venture far enough to say that the company then had their designs built by vifa.

but he hated car audio. and i don't blame him. his personal prize set ups were the W-T-W (or called to some M-T-M) set up in his studio monitors. subs are a lot less intricate to do in their narrow bandwidth. it's the highs that really show a good speaker builder. to this day i have yet to hear a reprodcution so real. no sq champ car, no home audio set up i have heard anywhere has matched it yet. i know there's others who can produce to that level and better. as he had a few guys he looked up to and i can't remember the names he rattled off. i just haven't had the luck of getting to hear better yet.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

from my view point of what i see, americans are too bull headed and refuse to accept what they don't know or don't understand, or to veer away from what they were taught in the books.

What point of view? Im personally offended by that comment frankly. That comment is 1) baseless, 2) arguementative at best, and 3) shows a very biased and irrational view on your part. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, Im surprised to see such swiss cheese logic from you.
At this point, I couldn't care less what you think Americans can or cant do. Clearly, the facts show otherwise. The US is the technological leader in many many fields, and yes, we can buil some VERY competent SQ woofers. Go read up on the history of the design phase of the IDMax from Image Dynamics, a medium sized AMERICAN company, the 06 RE XXX from a small AMERICAN company. or the JL W7 from a (relatively) large AMERICAN company, then come back to me and tell me we only farm out our nice drivers from Europeans. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

there are good american builders, don't get me wrong. there are just A LOT of american builders that are not as good as the few. and there's those that are one track minded that if they can't model it, it doesn't work. and that is where those that employ that mind set are wrong.

So what, there are no bad European speaker manufacturers? Europe doesn't have its 'elite few' manufacturers, its mediocre manufacturers, and its crappy manufacturers? Yeah those Volfenhaags are top of the line European Engineering!

i it's just how far they are willing to take it to perfection. like i said, it's that last 10% that is most critical. but it's that last 10% that is most time consuming. and 99.9% of people will never know that the speaker they just bought is only 90% of what it could be.

Yeah, guess that poor bastard should have bought a Volfenhaag. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

but he hated car audio. and i don't blame him. his personal prize set ups were the W-T-W (or called to some M-T-M) set up in his studio monitors.

At this point, I dont care about your friend, to be blunt. If his life is so secret you cannot divulge his name, credentials, experience or basically anything else (other than he's from Europe, and he hella good with spiders!), I'll spend my time learning about/from people with better attitudes.

i know there's others who can produce to that level and better. as he had a few guys he looked up to and i can't remember the names he rattled off.

That's okay, Im sure you would be at liberty to say anyway. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[B_Campbell 10+ year member]

I will be on a cruise next week. But I think I am banned from Rice killers. . .

lol for what?

 

[95stroked1500 10+ year member]

What point of view? Im personally offended by that comment frankly. That comment is 1) baseless, 2) arguementative at best, and 3) shows a very biased and irrational view on your part. You seem like an otherwise intelligent person, Im surprised to see such swiss cheese logic from you.
At this point, I couldn't care less what you think Americans can or cant do. Clearly, the facts show otherwise. The US is the technological leader in many many fields, and yes, we can buil some VERY competent SQ woofers. Go read up on the history of the design phase of the IDMax from Image Dynamics, a medium sized AMERICAN company, the 06 RE XXX from a small AMERICAN company. or the JL W7 from a (relatively) large AMERICAN company, then come back to me and tell me we only farm out our nice drivers from Europeans. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

So what, there are no bad European speaker manufacturers? Europe doesn't have its 'elite few' manufacturers, its mediocre manufacturers, and its crappy manufacturers? Yeah those Volfenhaags are top of the line European Engineering!

you don't have to get so aggro over a generalized statement. i never said there werent' bad european's and there weren't good american builders. i did say there were good american builders. just cause i didn't label them, and to your list there's also OZ audio, DD, mmats, zapco, ultra, and so on. just cause i commented on the mass lot of the one's i don't think too much of, doesn't mean i have a commi flag.

yeah, i can have my opinion about some in this industry. there's been several times during the years i've butted heads with brands i've dealt with "Dr's" as they call themselves. and it can be the simplest things they needed to change to improve the product to be more usable or marketable. and i tell you what, some of those guys will not do it because it isn't there idea or it will cost them an extra 2 cents on the production line. which left things only suitable for 1 application instead of the reliability or verstality they could have had. but hey, each his own.

and there are a few stateside companies that are very open to suggestions that are real world. and if it's practicle, you can see those changes to their products as soon as they can revise them. and that doesn't matter if it's me or you who passed the idea along. those guys are great to work with.

i'm no industry great or a who's who. but if you've seen some of things i have, maybe you would have a better understanding of why i can be so synnical about things.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

you don't have to get so aggro over a generalized statement. i never said there werent' bad european's and there weren't good american builders. i did say there were good american builders. just cause i didn't label them, and to your list there's also OZ audio, DD, mmats, zapco, ultra, and so on. just cause i commented on the mass lot of the one's i don't think too much of, doesn't mean i have a commi flag.
yeah, i can have my opinion about some in this industry. there's been several times during the years i've butted heads with brands i've dealt with "Dr's" as they call themselves. and it can be the simplest things they needed to change to improve the product to be more usable or marketable. and i tell you what, some of those guys will not do it because it isn't there idea or it will cost them an extra 2 cents on the production line. which left things only suitable for 1 application instead of the reliability or verstality they could have had. but hey, each his own.

and there are a few stateside companies that are very open to suggestions that are real world. and if it's practicle, you can see those changes to their products as soon as they can revise them. and that doesn't matter if it's me or you who passed the idea along. those guys are great to work with.

i'm no industry great or a who's who. but if you've seen some of things i have, maybe you would have a better understanding of why i can be so synnical about things.

So are we finally dropping the generalizations about 'Americans'? Again, there are plenty of top-notch American speaker manufacturers, so I guess I dont understand why in a previous post you want to single out only the bad American manufacturers. Europe has their Volfenhaags just as the US has their Audiobahn. Europe has their Morel/Brax/etc while the US has their elite manufacturers also. I dont think you own a commi flag, but I do think you are prone to make over-generalized statements that are not true. The fact your friend has a chip on his shoulder for US manufacturers has no bearing on this discussion, nor does it mean your frined is right in any way shape or form. Frankly, after hearing that 'opinion' from your friend, Im skeptical of his other opinions... you know, what few you've divulged.

Wait Im confused, you are just some guy who called "Dr"s in manufacturing facilities to explain to them how to improve their speakers? Am I reading that right? Who are you? lol Its starting to feel like you are some weirdo with illusions of granduer.

Why do you think we really care at this point what your opinion of 'stateside' companies are? You give zero credentials, you speak in the vaguest of terms and act like you are guarding top secret documents. Its not like you are the only guy around here who's dealt with these companies. You think there are a 'few' companies in this country that are open minded? Well, until you give us something to believe you are any sort of expert in this regard, I'll stick my own opinions of the various companies in this industry.... and I sure wont try labeling them based on something as silly as what nationality they are. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

i'm no industry great or a who's who. but if you've seen some of things i have, maybe you would have a better understanding of why i can be so synnical about things.

Yeah, sounds like you should write a book. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif Sorry, guess Im sounding like a bit of an ***, but getting alittle tired of you talking like THE expert on subwoofer design, American versus European manufacturers, and just car audio in general... all the while being super secretive about you, your friends and your experience/background. You aren't the only one here who has been around the block pal. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif At this point Im taking what you say with a grain of salt, for several reasons. But, feel free to explain any of this, if you think that wont be too unprofessional of you. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

Gotta agree with the illusions of grandeur comment.

Lollerskates.

 

[95stroked1500 10+ year member]

how many of you (cause i know i'm not the only one) have used brand X for years. then either they decide to make a change, or they get bought and make a change. suddenly, their new crap has repeatable constant problems. obvious area that needs fixed.

so you call them and ask them what they're doing about this problem. they tell you there is no problem. yes, this is the problem and this is why it's happening, this is what you need to do. no, we did that because of this and that. ok, well forget this and that, your design has issues, fix it. no, we did that for this and that. figure something else out then, like this. no, that would increase production cost.

then a year later, hardly anyone wants to touch their stuff.

so tell me, how many times are you going to go through this with multiple american companies over the years before you come to the realization of the big picture? and i'm not saying this isn't a problem only in this country. i'm saying this country has a problem of it.

how many times have you came across some engineers idea, who has no practicle clue of the real world? i used to work with one and he cost this company a lot of money before he got canned. and it just doesn't have to refer to audio, because they're in every field. and if you have never came across that problem, you have more life you need to live. just cause they're book smart, has a degree, doesn't mean they have hands on real world common sense. just because they have a doctorite, doesn't mean they are god status and cannot be wrong.

i'm not dragging down the one's that are good. or those that go re-test, and fix the problem.

just cause i have a european friend who is awesome at what he does, and i commented on what i see is a common mentality in this country, doesn't mean i said europe is so great and we ****. so quit trying to turn it into that.

i never said i was an expert designer. but i've been to enough rodeo's, talked with enough real cowboys, got in on a ride or 2 myself, to know there's a difference between a mechanical bull and real one. and isn't that what this whole thing started over? real world building vs computer simulations?

i've decided to edit in a rant.

first people are telling some other very experienced guy, that their modeling programs says one driver is better than the other and his real world experience is wrong.

that's where i stepped in with bs about pure modeling approach not being 100% accurate. wether that case of the sub being better or not isn't important to me. it's the fact of people on the mind set that their simulations are gold and there's nothing else about it.

then people are saying spider has nothing to do with sound and spider design isn't hard. they want some examples. then they want to argue about it, they don't like that either. they want to pick out context and get their panties in a bunch over things. expand the direction of the arguement.

then they don't like to hear about the uglier side of this industry. it's there, it's not a ghost. just cause we are the most technologically advanced country and can do a lot of great things, doesn't mean there's not someone else that can do something better.

too bad. i've seen what i've seen and i'll tell it how i saw/see it. wether you want to like it or accept it. before you start trying to attack me, go investigate or learn a part of it and then you can translate what you learn about it. aside from things you learn on the net.

there's a whole bunch in this industry who only understand and spout the science side of things that can be predicted. that by itself is only a half truth. then they bully and confuse the little guys who are trying to learn. just cause these other guys can't defend themselves against that type of background doesn't make it true.

 

[PatFitz9 10+ year member]

I don't mean this in an offensive way, but by the way you are talking, it seems that you (95stroked1500) are an uneducated person that thinks they know how to fix everything if only people would listen to you. There is a lot more to a business than listening to the customer. You keep being vague about how the audio industry would prosper if only your ideas were in place. You sound like Uncle Rico, i'm sure you would have won state, if only coach would have put you in. yeah, throw the football over dem mountains buddy... you should start your own company and show your superiority to us silly americans.

and btw, yeah there are some dumb people in the world, but they have those in Europe as well. I have a lot of respect for German engineers, but i'm sure they have their fair share of idiots that cost the company money. If you're going to bash americans, at least insult the fatty's and lazyasses. thats what we're known for.

 

[95stroked1500 10+ year member]

come on mane, re-read about this european vs american bit.

here, i cut, paste, and added it in.

"i think it comes down to if the person is building because they're after the almighty $, or if they're doing it to produce as close to perfect acoustical reproduction as they possibly can. rather than just american or european."

and about fixing things, have you never seen a product that had desing flaws? oh lets see, for example, how many people rant about that certain sub that the former kept breaking off the cone? but yet they kept spitting them out. tell me you have to be some expert to see there's a problem. and if you were to call them about it, what would you think when they tell you there is no problem.

not saying there weren't other issues how things were handled. i'm just exampling one scenario. i'm not the only one who has seen problems with companies over the years and spoken up. and then have a company keep producing that crap. i'm not trying to be uncle rico, not trying to solve everyone's problems. just stating some ugly facts i've been through i the biz.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

how many of you (cause i know i'm not the only one) have used brand X for years. then either they decide to make a change, or they get bought and make a change. suddenly, their new crap has repeatable constant problems. obvious area that needs fixed.
so you call them and ask them what they're doing about this problem. they tell you there is no problem. yes, this is the problem and this is why it's happening, this is what you need to do. no, we did that because of this and that. ok, well forget this and that, your design has issues, fix it. no, we did that for this and that. figure something else out then, like this. no, that would increase production cost.

then a year later, hardly anyone wants to touch their stuff.

so tell me, how many times are you going to go through this with multiple american companies over the years before you come to the realization of the big picture? and i'm not saying this isn't a problem only in this country. i'm saying this country has a problem of it.

how many times have you came across some engineers idea, who has no practicle clue of the real world? i used to work with one and he cost this company a lot of money before he got canned. and it just doesn't have to refer to audio, because they're in every field. and if you have never came across that problem, you have more life you need to live. just cause they're book smart, has a degree, doesn't mean they have hands on real world common sense. just because they have a doctorite, doesn't mean they are god status and cannot be wrong.

i'm not dragging down the one's that are good. or those that go re-test, and fix the problem.

just cause i have a european friend who is awesome at what he does, and i commented on what i see is a common mentality in this country, doesn't mean i said europe is so great and we ****. so quit trying to turn it into that.

i never said i was an expert designer. but i've been to enough rodeo's, talked with enough real cowboys, got in on a ride or 2 myself, to know there's a difference between a mechanical bull and real one. and isn't that what this whole thing started over? real world building vs computer simulations?

i've decided to edit in a rant.

first people are telling some other very experienced guy, that their modeling programs says one driver is better than the other and his real world experience is wrong.

that's where i stepped in with bs about pure modeling approach not being 100% accurate. wether that case of the sub being better or not isn't important to me. it's the fact of people on the mind set that their simulations are gold and there's nothing else about it.

then people are saying spider has nothing to do with sound and spider design isn't hard. they want some examples. then they want to argue about it, they don't like that either. they want to pick out context and get their panties in a bunch over things. expand the direction of the arguement.

then they don't like to hear about the uglier side of this industry. it's there, it's not a ghost. just cause we are the most technologically advanced country and can do a lot of great things, doesn't mean there's not someone else that can do something better.

too bad. i've seen what i've seen and i'll tell it how i saw/see it. wether you want to like it or accept it. before you start trying to attack me, go investigate or learn a part of it and then you can translate what you learn about it. aside from things you learn on the net.

there's a whole bunch in this industry who only understand and spout the science side of things that can be predicted. that by itself is only a half truth. then they bully and confuse the little guys who are trying to learn. just cause these other guys can't defend themselves against that type of background doesn't make it true.

Im a mechanical engineer by trade, I work with electrical engineering nerds alot... nuff said? Lets put it this way, I got into an arguement with an electrical engineer because in a quote meeting, he announced "money is completely unnecessary in our society!" The amazing part, when discussing electrical circuit, ladder logic or PLC programming, the man was/is an utter genius, smartest electrical engineer Ive worked with (and Ive worked with many). But common sense? It simply wasn't there, at all. Honestly, Im betting Ive worked with more people like that than you have. Sheer guess on my part judging by my previous history of working with weirdos. lol Anyway... not sure what that has to do with the subject beyond explaining to you I dont have more 'living to do'. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif Or are you suggesting Europe has no common senseless engineers? Dont bother trying, Ive met plenty of them too. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif
To the rest of it... I dont even know where to begin. lets see, the American vs European stuff, Im not the one who mentioned my friend's bias against American companies/designs, and I wasn't eager to agree, that was you. Or, did you post such information as "but their bringing in an outside person to achieve a sound they couldn't, already shows that" to say you disagree, and in fact American companies can make good sounding subs? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif BS. I guess if one American speaker designer ever ever ever goes to Europe to work for a European manufacturer, Americans should claim its due to Europeans not being able to get it right, or not having the patience? Face it, your comments are biased against AMERICAN manufacturers, and AMERICAN ideals/incentives/goals/motives. Never once did you say company X did this, and company X is guilty of lousy equipment... its always been in the context of AMERICAN manufacturers. If you dont want Americans to get their feathers ruffled, dont bring up baseless generalizations aimed at making them look bad.

Next, calling some random company to tell them how to redesign their sub. Are you insane? That's all I have to say about that. Oh and maybe a lol.

Next, real-world building versus computer simulations. No, that is NOT how this started, it started with you claiming (aparently) that BL curves mean nothing. I mean, they scientifically show distortin outputs and are easily comparable, but hey you are right, they come on paper, must mean jack. Or maybe you were claiming your golden ears hear better than a microphone and computer can. Either way, you still dont seem to get the simple concept of accuracy of sound reproduction versus personal preference. If you did, you wouldn't be bringing up that flawed arguement, again.

Lets try this again. Nobody said this: "that's where i stepped in with bs about pure modeling approach not being 100% accurate". please show me where I, or anyone else in this thread, said pure modeling is 100% accurate. Again you are arguing a case that was never made. People HAVE stated the differences between modeled dirsortion curves and personal preference, but nobody has sad a person's opinion is wrong. You really need to get your facts straight here.

Next, the uglier side of the industry. You really are thick, aren't you? Talk about car audio's dark underbelly all you want (lol) but when you put it in the context of American based only, yeah Im gonna call your BS, every time pal.

Next, self investigation.... of what? Should we google search "some European spider whiz"? How about "the great American spider scandal of 2006!"? You tell us we are wrong, say its cuz your European buddy taught you so, but oh no you cant say who or even how, then back up your claims with "figure it out yourselves!". Its too bad, maybe you really do know something, and your lousy people skills are simply hiding it. But I guess we'll never know, you'll just be the crackpot that tried to tell American speaker companies how they were so f'ed up. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Lastly, the science bullies. Yes, these notorious predators of weaker car audio enthusiasts can be distinguished by their pocket protectors, calculators and pages of silly scientific mumbo jumbo. How dare they run off the little guys with their... their... their science... and facts! If you see one, do not try to confront him, run away. I hear they bite.

Cheers.

 

[Nukedsodapop 5,000+ posts]

so........ which one is better SQ/SQL/SPL wise?