Which amp would have better sq?

[headbussaboi 10+ year member]

A better question is.....Why would it change?
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And you very well might have heard a difference!

We're not saying that you heard no difference, or your experience was "wrong" (though there is the placebo effect, but we'll assume that wasn't the issue for reasons of simplicity).

What we are (I am, at least) saying, or asking, is.....Okay, you heard a difference. Yes, one amplifier is class A/B, one amplifier is class D. How do you know the class of the amplifier is what caused the change? How did you eliminate all of the other variables in order to arrive at the conclusion that it was even remotely related to the class of the amplifier? How do you know there wasn't a difference in frequency response, which is completely independent of amplifier class? How do you know there isn't a difference in distortion, or gain structure, or all of the other dozen things that could just as easily have caused the difference you heard?

People exchange amplifiers, hear a difference, and assume they know what the cause was. And then they use this "experience" as proof of their claim. Or they claim, as you see above, that you can't argue with "their opinion" because it's "their opinion". Well, why is your opinion right? It necessarily isn't because you didn't take any of the necessary precautions and measurements to effectively use that experience to support the conclusion you drew from it.

Hmmm. Good sh!t. I'm gonna have to think about that one for a long while:crap:.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

never said my opinion was protected just said that it's not wrong.

You still haven't answered my question.

How did you eliminate every other possible variable to arrive at the conclusion that it simply must have been the class of the amplifier (A/B vs. D) that caused the change you heard?

i'm arguing because you said it was wrong.

And it is.

Argue all you want, you can't change the facts.

if that's the case who we decide to vote for the oposing person would say it's wrong. but it's not it's our opinion.

What?

i don't give weight to my opinions i just give my opinion.

Which was wrong //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

why can't yours be wrong? what makes your information so right?

Because I haven't given an "opinion". I've provided facts.

And this isn't about my opinion. It's about the validity of your opinion, which you've yet to sufficiently support by answering the simple questions I've asked you.

what makes your information so right?

It's yet to be disproven //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

just because something is proved doesn't mean it's right. for example evolution some have proved it is true some have proved that it isn't.

For the love of god (figure of speech), you don't want to go there.

But, for the sake of argument......provide evidence that anything I have stated thus far is incorrect. Don't give me opinions. Don't give me magazine reviews. Give me a scientifically conducted, valid experiment that disproves anything I've said.

 

[slickone 10+ year member]

A better question is.....Why would it change?
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

And you very well might have heard a difference!

We're not saying that you heard no difference, or your experience was "wrong" (though there is the placebo effect, but we'll assume that wasn't the issue for reasons of simplicity).

What we are (I am, at least) saying, or asking, is.....Okay, you heard a difference. Yes, one amplifier is class A/B, one amplifier is class D. How do you know the class of the amplifier is what caused the change? How did you eliminate all of the other variables in order to arrive at the conclusion that it was even remotely related to the class of the amplifier? How do you know there wasn't a difference in frequency response, which is completely independent of amplifier class? How do you know there isn't a difference in distortion, or gain structure, or all of the other dozen things that could just as easily have caused the difference you heard?

People exchange amplifiers, hear a difference, and assume they know what the cause was. And then they use this "experience" as proof of their claim. Or they claim, as you see above, that you can't argue with "their opinion" because it's "their opinion". Well, why is your opinion right? It necessarily isn't because you didn't take any of the necessary precautions and measurements to effectively use that experience to support the conclusion you drew from it.

This, Sir, I will agree with. If you can rule out all factors in an amplifier from one to another, then it is possible. If you take said amp A that is class whatever and make its frequency response (out of the box) the same as said amp b, there would be no issues here with me. But, I have been through this personally and have no class D amps to prove the point I am trying to make. same signal in to both amps won't produce same signal out all the time..won't happen....without tailoring one amp to match the other. If you are going to do this, then yes, in proven experiments, you CAN say there is no difference between amp a and amp b....

I'm not knocking class d amps. they have there place in this world and have proven they do. I just have my opinion that I prefer not to use them and that is all my point here is really.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Let me rephrase that about the clipping....I do agree that clipping can cause variables with ANY amp as you say. but getting a square wave out of an ab amp here in 20yrs of "personal" experience has never happened. you have peaks with any music and you are going to get a clipping state a lot more than most people know when you hammer down.

Depends on how much powa you have on tap //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/naughty.gif.94359f346c0f1259df8038d60b41863e.gif

Yes, you may get some clipping on peaks. But how audible would this clipping be for brief transients? And with the high compression of most popular music today, how much less frequently do those large dynamic peaks occur? And if one sufficiently plans their system, how much can they eliminate clipping from the equation?

I have 230w, 380-440w, and 1400w class ab amps at my disposal. I can get access to an rta and have a "benchtest" situation where I can show you what I mean if someone wants to send an amp to me to compare. I can set gains with a dmm to .1 variance and can clamp the leads from battery or power supply if you prefer to show you that with a 20-100hz tone,you would be shocked in the outcome of efficiencies.

Efficiencies will vary, sure. But to that end, you could also see a significant difference in efficiency between two amplifiers of the same class. The JL's for example were pretty inefficient for a class D design.

I'm not one to bandwagon anything, except soundstream of the past maybe....lol,

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//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

But to say there is no difference except in richard clark's lab is wrong.

It's the single best place to attempt to prove the differences people claim //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

And more have done experiments than RC.

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

I encourage anyone sold on amp sonics to actually look at their music. Under a microscope, it could be clipping horribly. But, you know what, you cannot hear it because it's below the level of human sensitivity. Some people love to think they can hear all this qualities [how "clean" it is] from one amp to the next, but they are still listening to music which may be "dirty" as sin. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

 

[infamous_e46 5,000+ posts]

buy my class t amp

class d power and effeciency

class a/b/ sound quality

 

[mcsoul 10+ year member]

Edit: How would the class of the amp effect the sound? At high sound levels would they both sound the same?

Edit: Which would be a better choice for powering 2 ID's? Would there be any difference if it was wired @ 4 instead of 1 ohm?

If you set the gains properly, you will not hear a difference due to amp class. There is a good chance that the hifonics may (I'm not saying I'm sure here) produce less power. I'm just saying that because they are known on the bxi line to require very stout 14.4 electrical to get rated power. I would not think that it would be significantly less power, maybe 100w (900 vs 1000). The same overrating may apply to the TMA series as well, I have no idea if it does.

The question about 1 ohm vs 4 ohm, the answer is there is absolutely no difference other than how the speakers are wired. The speakers do not care or sound different in parallel (1 ohm) or series-parallel (4 ohm).

I will say again, that systems or cars tend to change, you may want to try new things. The 2 channel full range 250w rms x 2 that the 1008 offers could come in handy.

 

[rc10mike 10+ year member]

squeak,

So are you saying in a real world situation, where you swap amps from D to A/B or vice versa (keeping everything else the same) that you CANT hear a difference?

Dont confuse this with being able to tell from a blind test which is which..

Oh and both amps were high-end.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

squeak,
So are you saying in a real world situation, where you swap amps from D to A/B or vice versa (keeping everything else the same) that you CANT hear a difference?

Dont confuse this with being able to tell from a blind test which is which..

Oh and both amps were high-end.

No.

I'm saying if you went from A/B to D and you did hear a difference, you need to eliminate every other variable before you can attribute that difference to one specific variable (i.e. the "class"). Just because one was A/B and one was D does not mean the difference you heard was even remotely related to the class of the amplifier unless you painstakingly eliminated every other variable which could result in a difference in sound.

The same is true any time you switch out any two amplifiers amplifier.

Did you hear a difference? If yes, then how did you eliminate every other variable to arrive at the conclusion that the "class" of the amplifier was responsible for the difference? Being high-end is irrelevant to the question at hand because any amplifier, high-end or not, could have measurable and identifiable audible anomalies in frequency response, distortion, etc that result in a difference in sound which is wholly unrelated to the "class" of the amplifier. There may have been a difference in power which resulted in the difference in sound. There may have been a difference in gain setting that caused the difference in sound. There may have been a difference in when the amplifiers clipped that resulted in a difference in sound. Etc etc etc.

Hearing a difference is not necessarily unique. There is a multitude of readily identifiable and measurable causes. Having the ability or taking the time to identify why you are hearing a difference is unique.

I'm also saying that many people have conducted scientifically valid and significant experiments, and no one has ever been able to hear a difference in sound attributable to the class of amplifiers. So what makes you think you can?

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

squeak,
So are you saying in a real world situation, where you swap amps from D to A/B or vice versa (keeping everything else the same) that you CANT hear a difference?

Done the swap plenty of times....even between the same type of Class D [iCE Technology], but different manufacturer. Pretty much heard a difference every single time, as I SHOULD. If you bought two of the same amps, say Alpine PDX4.150's they very well could sound different. If they tested different, they would sound different. If you matched them on those 5 factors Squeak already mentioned [thank you, sir!], then they would sound the same.

But, I'm not so ignorant to CONCLUDE that one amp sounds better than the other due to these ridiculous factors amp manufacturers want you to believe makes their amps sound better....lower S/N, damping factor, regulated PS, more.

Oh and both amps were high-end.

Which means??

 

[rc10mike 10+ year member]

Right so if those 5 factors are the same you wont hear a difference, gotcha.

 

[headbussaboi 10+ year member]

I guess I'm going to go to My Ebay and delete the amps Justonemoreamp and Andy4879 put up for sale with "killer SQ":laugh:.