Which amp would have better sq?

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

never said it was an experiment said i just traded amps.

Exactly my point.

what i think is ignorant is that your saying my opinion is false when i've always stated it's my opinion. me saying that ab amps sound better then class d amps is my opinion. please forgive me if i didn't type the necessary IMO. but to say someone is wrong in there opinion is a bit upity.

Not upity or ignorant. But factual. It's a matter of fact that you are attempting to draw conclusions from situations which do not and can not support your deductions.

Your opinion can be wrong. I can be of the opinion that the moon is a giant cheesepuff. You would be rather ignorant and upity to tell me my opinion is invalid or wrong. It's an opinion, and I can have those regardless of their accuracy.

How do you know the class of the amplifier played any role in the difference you heard? How can you rule out every other variable to come to the conclusion that it was nothing other than the class of the amplifier? How did you control all of the other variable to allow you to reach such a conclusion?

You might be offended that I'm telling you your opinion is invalid, inconclusive and irrelevant. But that doesn't change the fact that it is.

 

[tcguy85 10+ year member]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif now i'm affraid i'm going to have to disagree there. amp choice does make a difference granted the right install and good tuning does alot of work amp choice does make a diffrence.

yes, you don't want to use the worlds shittiest amp, but the amp will probably make the smallest difference. as long as it puts out enough good clean power.

 

[headbussaboi 10+ year member]

Someone might want to explain what damping factor is and why it's usually higher on class a/b amps.

 

[Horsemanwill 10+ year member]

i've found these to be of good reading

http://www.zedaudiocorp.com/techtalk.html

http://www.caraudiomag.com/specialfeatures/0111cae_anatomy_power_amplifier/index.html

http://www.caraudiomag.com/features/caep_0201_picking_an_amp/index.html

 

[slickone 10+ year member]

Squeak,

You know your a long time buddy of mine. But the term "proof is in the pudding" applies here.

Show me proof there is no audible difference between ab/d from 20-100hz and also the efficiencies of them both playing a sine wave with gains set the same at say..63hz....if you can and there is a difference, i'll agree

The ONLY class D amp I would own is a xtant 1001dx (old style stainless with copper mesh squares.

I have ran Mmats hc's, Memphis, JL, personally and heard quite a few in other scenario's and wouldn't own one again. Throw slew and damping out the window because they say they don't matter...but my experience by ear and rta can show otherwise...control is the key and a lot can't do that..especially if you get a class d in a clipping state...horrid

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

Someone might want to explain what damping factor is and why it's usually higher on class a/b amps.

Inaudible, regardless of class.

You guys should be thanking Squeak for straightening you out, not arguing with him. He's on your side, you just cant see it because you're monetarily and emotionally involved in your amp choices. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

If amps have "SQ" then so do speaker wires - we know everything about both that dictate how they do their job. We can alter the known factors to alter the sound, but........low and behold.........our ears **** at hearing the differences. Interesting how both are sold on pure marketing bullshit.

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

Might as well state that sound quality is not relative before this evolves into another "yea, but you don't know SQ" fandango.

 

[Horsemanwill 10+ year member]

i don't go by marketing i go by what my ears like we may not hear the diffrence in wires and how some say we can't hear the diffrence in amps but i know what i've tried and what i like. i'm not gonna thank anyone who sits there and says my opinion is wrong. that's y it's MY opinion.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Show me proof there is no audible difference between ab/d from 20-100hz and also the efficiencies of them both playing a sine wave with gains set the same at say..63hz....if you can and there is a difference, i'll agree

To the contrary....there's been plenty of scientifically valid experiments conducted over the years to demonstrate the lack of audible difference between the "class" of an amplifier. No one has ever been able to demonstrate the the claimed audibility.

So the proof is on the "opposing team" ( //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif ) to demonstrate that such a difference does exist! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

especially if you get a class d in a clipping state...horrid

And here you point out an example of an example that can occur between any two amplifiers....that if clipping and/or gain setting differences. There's no mystery here.....the cause of the difference in sound would be obvious. But is the cause the class of the amplifier.....or the distortion caused by driving the amplifier into hard clipping? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[headbussaboi 10+ year member]

Inaudible, regardless of class.
You guys should be thanking Squeak for straightening you out, not arguing with him. He's on your side, you just cant see it because you're monetarily and emotionally involved in your amp choices. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

If amps have "SQ" then so do speaker wires - we know everything about both that dictate how they do their job. We can alter the known factors to alter the sound, but........low and behold.........our ears **** at hearing the differences. Interesting how both are sold on pure marketing bullshit.

No, I'm here to learn why an amp being either class a/b or d does not change the SQ. I'm not arguing but, more looking for proof because I thought there was a difference when I changed out my RF 800.2 for an Autotek MM1000.1, but I could be wrong. Maybe my ears ****.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

i'm not gonna thank anyone who sits there and says my opinion is wrong. that's y it's MY opinion.

And why exactly is your opinion protected by a veil of impenetrability? Why is your opinion inherently "right" just because it's "your opinion"? Why can't your opinion be wrong? Why can't it be invalid and inconclusive just because it's your opinion?

I think your problem is giving to much weight to your opinions.

 

[Horsemanwill 10+ year member]

never said my opinion was protected just said that it's not wrong. at the same time i never said it was right. i'm arguing because you said it was wrong. if that's the case who we decide to vote for the oposing person would say it's wrong. but it's not it's our opinion. i don't give weight to my opinions i just give my opinion. why can't yours be wrong? what makes your information so right? just because something is proved doesn't mean it's right. for example evolution some have proved it is true some have proved that it isn't.

 

[slickone 10+ year member]

To the contrary....there's been plenty of scientifically valid experiments conducted over the years to demonstrate the lack of audible difference between the "class" of an amplifier. No one has ever been able to demonstrate the the claimed audibility.
So the proof is on the "opposing team" ( //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif ) to demonstrate that such a difference does exist! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

And here you point out an example of an example that can occur between any two amplifiers....that if clipping and/or gain setting differences. There's no mystery here.....the cause of the difference in sound would be obvious. But is the cause the class of the amplifier.....or the distortion caused by driving the amplifier into hard clipping? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Let me rephrase that about the clipping....I do agree that clipping can cause variables with ANY amp as you say. but getting a square wave out of an ab amp here in 20yrs of "personal" experience has never happened. you have peaks with any music and you are going to get a clipping state a lot more than most people know when you hammer down.

I have 230w, 380-440w, and 1400w class ab amps at my disposal. I can get access to an rta and have a "benchtest" situation where I can show you what I mean if someone wants to send an amp to me to compare. I can set gains with a dmm to .1 variance and can clamp the leads from battery or power supply if you prefer to show you that with a 20-100hz tone,you would be shocked in the outcome of efficiencies.

I'm not one to bandwagon anything, except soundstream of the past maybe....lol, and could really care less what other people think. But to say there is no difference except in richard clark's lab is wrong. "IMO"

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

No, I'm here to learn why an amp being either class a/b or d does not change the SQ.

A better question is.....Why would it change?

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

I'm not arguing but, more looking for proof because I thought there was a difference when I changed out my RF 800.2 for an Autotek MM1000.1, but I could be wrong. Maybe my ears ****.

And you very well might have heard a difference!

We're not saying that you heard no difference, or your experience was "wrong" (though there is the placebo effect, but we'll assume that wasn't the issue for reasons of simplicity).

What we are (I am, at least) saying, or asking, is.....Okay, you heard a difference. Yes, one amplifier is class A/B, one amplifier is class D. How do you know the class of the amplifier is what caused the change? How did you eliminate all of the other variables in order to arrive at the conclusion that it was even remotely related to the class of the amplifier? How do you know there wasn't a difference in frequency response, which is completely independent of amplifier class? How do you know there isn't a difference in distortion, or gain structure, or all of the other dozen things that could just as easily have caused the difference you heard?

People exchange amplifiers, hear a difference, and assume they know what the cause was. And then they use this "experience" as proof of their claim. Or they claim, as you see above, that you can't argue with "their opinion" because it's "their opinion". Well, why is your opinion right? It necessarily isn't because you didn't take any of the necessary precautions and measurements to effectively use that experience to support the conclusion you drew from it.

 

[Horsemanwill 10+ year member]

i never said you can't argue with my opinion but you can't say it's wrong. anyone can argue with opinions that's why the bill of rights was made up so that one can argue with an opinion but that doesn't make the other person wrong.

edit: with that i'm done. sorry to the OP for this canter.