what box for 4 10w7s+1 13w7?

[cotjones 10+ year member]

hey still haven't heard WHAT kind of cancellation is present in different size sub setups that is not in same size sub setups...

OR why the levels of cancellation are any different than same size setups...

the only thing i've seen true is that the pattern is different and changes from frequency to frequency (or location and diffusion across the acoustic environment)

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

hey still haven't heard WHAT kind of cancellation is present in different size sub setups that is not in same size sub setups...
OR why the levels of cancellation are any different than same size setups...

the only thing i've seen true is that the pattern is different and changes from frequency to frequency (or location and diffusion across the acoustic environment)

I still haven't heard why multiple sized subs are necessary/desired/acceptable. Again, if you cant make a single [sized] sub system play two octaves with the response you are looking for, you should try a different hobby.
You act as if Im the first person to explain the shortcomings of multi sized sub systems. Im not. Its a common mistake made by noobs who dont know any better. There's plenty of reasons why you never see any serious SQ system that employs more than one sized sub. So even the idea of 'each will compliment the other for better performance' that every person who builds such a system aspires to is in reality a fallacy. Its unnecessary, its overly complex for no good reason, its overly expensive for no good reason, and it adds erratic frequency response problems that wouldn't otherwise exists. For no good reason.

Ive told you all along that if you would have said you built it simply for show, I wouldn't have disagreed. But you've tried to claim not aesthetic accomplishments, but sonic performance ones. This is you only fooling yourself. It was impractical and unnecessarily expensive. Anything else is just excuses.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

I still haven't heard why multiple sized subs are necessary/desired/acceptable. Again, if you cant make a single [sized] sub system play two octaves with the response you are looking for, you should try a different hobby.

why they are necessary:

They are not, neither are having subs period.

why they are desired:

had the equiptment, louder with the 13 than without it

why they are acceptable:

The effects of cancellation aren't allways a night and day difference, as you said the effects are "sporatic" meaning its perfectly possible that in any multi sub setup cancellation isn't much higher than same sub setups.

you are taking a risk with it, no doubt there, I wouldn't recommend it, I believe I got lucky somewhat.

HERE is how i would rate the performance of my system... lets say normally the 13 would equal the output of 4 10's... well in my setup it was only 3. It would be a stretch to say it was any worse than that, and 7 10's instead of 8 was a hit i was willing to take considering i got the 13 for about 300 bucks, and the 10's were 400a piece.

Fact: I gained alot of output adding the 13 (more than i would by adding a 10)

Fact: the Sq might have not been as good or flat on a meter. but the change was barrely noticeable to the ear, and i in no way was attempting to win any SQ competitions. for a daily system, it was better in sq and spl than quite alot of others.

You act as if Im the first person to explain the shortcomings of multi sized sub systems. Im not. Its a common mistake made by noobs who dont know any better. There's plenty of reasons why you never see any serious SQ system that employs more than one sized sub. So even the idea of 'each will compliment the other for better performance' that every person who builds such a system aspires to is in reality a fallacy. Its unnecessary, its overly complex for no good reason, its overly expensive for no good reason, and it adds erratic frequency response problems that wouldn't otherwise exists. For no good reason.

If i EVER implied that different sized setups are advantageous over same sized, I did not mean to. once again, it might not have been IDEAL but it was still good...

Do you give people who run sealed enclosures looking for SPL this much shit?

Ive told you all along that if you would have said you built it simply for show, I wouldn't have disagreed. But you've tried to claim not aesthetic accomplishments, but sonic performance ones. This is you only fooling yourself. It was impractical and unnecessarily expensive. Anything else is just excuses.

The only sonic performance accomplishment i ment to claim, was that the system performed comparably to those with similar to slightly less amounts of equiptment.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

why they are necessary:They are not, neither are having subs period.

why they are desired:

had the equiptment, louder with the 13 than without it

why they are acceptable:

The effects of cancellation aren't allways a night and day difference, as you said the effects are "sporatic" meaning its perfectly possible that in any multi sub setup cancellation isn't much higher than same sub setups.

Necessary. Sure, you dont have to run subs. Heck, you dont have to run mids. You could just run tweeters and say screw bass altogether. I fail to see how this is relevant to my point however.
Desired. I own many sets of subs. I guarantee if I crammed them all in my ride it would be louder. Does this mean Ive made a good choice?

Acceptable. Would it be acceptable for me to run a pair of PPI 12's, a pair of CV 10's, a pair of XXX 15's, four ID 8's, etc? Again, I guarantee it would be louder than picking one set, I guess that plus some untrained ears telling me its louder would be all Id need to make it a good choice.

Anything is possible. The likelihood, especially considering the source, is another story.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Necessary. Sure, you dont have to run subs. Heck, you dont have to run mids. You could just run tweeters and say screw bass altogether. I fail to see how this is relevant to my point however.

You fail to see how it's relevant to your point? do you in some way have an impairment in basic communication skills... You asked why it was necessary, i told you it wasn't.

Desired. I own many sets of subs. I guarantee if I crammed them all in my ride it would be louder. Does this mean Ive made a good choice?

If you wanted it to be "LOUDER," and it got "LOUDER," then you could probably say yes, i don't see why not? however the statement is rediculous applying unknown and unecessary paramters to a simple concept...

IE: from your arguement then, If I own 10 sets of the same sub in 15"s. I gurantee if i crammed them all in my ride it would be louder, does this mean i've made a good choice?

Acceptable. Would it be acceptable for me to run a pair of PPI 12's, a pair of CV 10's, a pair of XXX 15's, four ID 8's, etc? Again, I guarantee it would be louder than picking one set, I guess that plus some untrained ears telling me its louder would be all Id need to make it a good choice.
Anything is possible. The likelihood, especially considering the source, is another story.

Would it be acceptable? sonicly? impossible to really tell without hearing... might, might not, possibillity of a displeasing result goes up with variety of subs. Aestetically? doubt it.

Last time I checked, it doesn't take trained ears to decide what is clearly "louder"

When you are splitting hairs (like between decibels) i have no interest in knowing that my system is 1 db higher than another. The only comparisons I've made were clear cut

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

You fail to see how it's relevant to your point? do you in some way have an impairment in basic communication skills... You asked why it was necessary, i told you it wasn't.

Funny that you mention communication break downs, you think I wont notice your revolving logic? I do.
What I asked was if you could explain why mul;tiple sized subs would ever be necessary, considering we are only discussing a 2-octave bandwidth. Your reply? That subs aren't necessary at all. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif So my reply was no certain speaker is 'necessary' if you want to ignore usable frequency ranges and dont mind them being left out of the reproduction, as your response implies.

So again I'll ask, do you have even ONE single reason why running multiple sized subs is necessary? I already know you can't, or you would have, instead of trying to cloud the discussion with semantics.

If you wanted it to be "LOUDER," and it got "LOUDER," then you could probably say yes, i don't see why not? however the statement is rediculous applying unknown and unecessary paramters to a simple concept...

Again now you are trying to imply you did your install for no reason other than to be loud. Yet I and many others here have heard you, plenty of times, talk about how awesome the SQ was with your setup. And yes, when you first came here, you were on the "10's for upper bass and 13.5 for low low bass" kick that all noobs rely on when attempting such an install. But now, after a few months of googling the topic, you think you have some reasonable theory as to why its not a bad idea.
Sure, if your idea of improved performance is it appearing louder to the ***** ear, knock yourself out, run every speaker you can get your little hands on. But for most of us, we concern ourselves with will that give me an erratic freq response, will it boost output in the range I want, etc etc. You? You were just aiming to impress a parking lot full of students. Congrats. But unfortunately, that's as far as the respect goes. We aren't a bunch of kids standing around in your school lot, we know better, and we aren't impressed.

IE: from your arguement then, If I own 10 sets of the same sub in 15"s. I gurantee if i crammed them all in my ride it would be louder, does this mean i've made a good choice?

You seem to have lost track of whose argument is whose. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif Im not the one suggesting to cram any sized speakers or brands you can in your ride so long as you already own them.

Would it be acceptable? sonicly? impossible to really tell without hearing... might, might not, possibillity of a displeasing result goes up with variety of subs. Aestetically? doubt it.

First off, I just realized, Im arguing acoustic theory with a kid who spells the word "sonicly". //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wow.gif.23d729408e9177caa2a0ed6a2ba6588e.gif
The fact that you think it might work 'sonicly' tells me how little you understand about basic system design, still. I have told you before but you obviously still have not.... go read the speaker design handbook by Vance Dickason. You would learn alot. Maybe you will even learn to spell the word sonic, and all its derivatives. Yes I know, the spelling police, right? well if a person cant even spell the word, how well does he know the topic? You need to keep googling.

Last time I checked, it doesn't take trained ears to decide what is clearly "louder"When you are splitting hairs (like between decibels) i have no interest in knowing that my system is 1 db higher than another. The only comparisons I've made were clear cut

Yeah, its wonder we bother with silly things like microphones, SPL meters and RTA read outs. All we really need to do is gather 20 highschool kids together to form a solid hypothesis, and then prove it.
At what frequency were you louder? How can you be sure this boost in output at certain freqs didnt also come with dips in output at other freqs? Oh that's right, now you claim you dont care, it was only about getting loud. But, is that really true....? Lets go find out for ourselves....

so here is my planned system i"m wanting ta get some opinions... please don't critize me if you don't know what you're talking about... and read all the specs before u say anything...

This system will be powered by 2 JL audio 1000/1's...

the airspace is slightly more than factory specification but i have sound-absorbent foam to compensate for the size while giving the bass a tighter, cleaner sound. PS: i don't think there are any problems, i think it sounds amazing i only want opionions

and this post is from a previous disasterous thread... so i'll answer the obvious questions i want two different size subs because the bigger subs can hit much lower frequencies louder and cleaner than the tens.... the ratio of 1 13 to 4 10's seems to be more equal then say 2 13's to 4 10's (i have heard them both) there is no cancellation because the differnt sized subs are in different air spaces and the amps set to different frequencies... cancelation is caused by 2 differnent subs emitting the same signal for various reasons.... and i had the comment that 1000 wats from a jl amp sounds the same as 1000 watts from any brand amp... to me that statment made me die laughing but again give me your opinions... and yes!!! the system so far costed 2000 bucks more than my car is worth

This is a thread from when you first came here, describing your system. Now correct me if Im wrong, but I dont see you stating the system was built just to 'get loud'. It seems pretty obvious to me you were touting the SQ aspects of the system, thanks to your oh so smart idea of running 10's for the upper bass, and a 13.5 for the low lows.
Busted.

how is there cancellation? every one says that... there is no cancellation at all its one of the cleanest bass systems at all frequencies i've heard

Again, a comment from you, about your system, when you first came here. No mention of just making it loud at the expense of SQ, no mention of understanding cancellation in any way. Nope, just a total denial of reality back then, just as now.
Digging up old quotes from you, to show how full of shit you really are, is kinda fun. Here's some more...

and yes i found that the only way i could get full rich sound at ALL bass frequencies was by mixing sizes of subs...

right but the boosted frequencies are the loudest i boost lower frequencies on the 13 and higher ones on the 10's... they all play 120

also i plan on putting the amps on filters so that there is only about 5 ta 10 hertz of overlap

so asking if one wat can be louder than another isn't like asking if an inch can be a foot?

cause to me saying that a watt from one amp is the same as a watt from another is kinda like saying a earthquake is the same as a tidal wave

so ur telling me all 1000 watt amps put out the same spl?

wow since i deff. said that they won't cancel because of different equallizer settings and frequency cut off's... and a billion people could tell me the same thin but the fact is i know that i don't have cancelation because I HAVE HEARD THE SYSTEM...

right that would be the obvious concern but the real system is one 13 and 4 10's

its actually very nicley ballanced a 13w6 is insanely louder than a 10

it won't be completly strict like that but i'm thinking that you won't be able to hear a problem with it even with a 10 hz overlap since the distortion wasn't that great even with the x-overs set the same... and i want this setup because i know(i have been told) that all subs play the same frequency... but smaller subs are capable of playing higher frequencies noticably better than lows and bigger subs are likewise better at lower frequencies and sound worse with higher ones... not just subs, why do you think mids don't normally come in 15"s?

to go further on what he said the component idea was my inspiration... i had 3 12's they sounded good and i had been to competions too and they sounded good, all useing the same size subs... all sounding good... but i wanted something better... so i thought well on certain songs it sounds like the sub is fighting too hard to climb up and down frequencies quickly enough and a speaker can only play 1 frequency at a time so why not put 2 seperate sub systems in the same car? its like a component sub system, lol

don't expect it to be easy but i believe it is a way to achieve both higher spl and sq than all same size subs when done correctly

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Shall I keep going, or have I sufficiently determined that 1) you are a liar, and 2) you still dont have a clue over a year after coming to this site and getting educated on the subject numerous times. CLEARLY your goal was SQ oriented when you built that system. Now, after realizing what a dumb *** move it was, here you are trying to save face by saying you didnt do it for SQ purposes, only to make it louder. Its like you think we dont remember all the bullshit you fed us when you first arrived. Or that we dont know where the search button is to go find it. Go ahead, deny it, I dare you. All these quotes showing you stating something you now say the opposite of, were all brought out of only 2 threads. I have plenty more to go get, if you care to try and deny it still.

The truth is, you desperately want us to respect you. Reality is that if you had accepted your role as noobie when you first arrived, and set about to learn, rather than attempt to teach and impress, you might actually know a thing or two by now AND have earned our respect. But instead, you decided you ALREADY know, and we are all wrong. After a few months you come to realize you were wrong, and we were right, so you change your story to say it wasn't about SQ. Like we wont notice. We notice. We also notice how impossible it is for you to just admit you dont know what the fuck you are doing. The best we will get out of you, is in another year and a half you kind of sort of admit you were almost half wrong... but not really.

Ive honestly never had less respect for you than I do now. Smarten up for Christ's sake. Im starting to feel sorry for your pathetic self, and I hate feeling sorry for people. Isn't there anything you can do to grow out of this need attention phase a little faster? Its getting old.

 

[Rashaddd 5,000+ posts]

^^

 

[Xprime4 10+ year member]

Cotjone you should apply at best buy for a job //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Then you could say all the shit you want all day long without someone telling you that you're stupid.

So a SQ 18 doesn't exist but mixing sub size doesn't create cancellation is that righ? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Skip01 5,000+ posts]

Hes gonna come back and quote everything just said and have a random point he found on wiki and try and somehow twist it into his situation and prove that he is RIGHT.......in his mind of course

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Just because you can come up with a post as long as a book you "pwn" i didn't even take the time to read through all the shit you posted, does that make you right?

if you would like to say yes, we could see how long of a response i can make on the interaction of soundwaves, cause that would make me right. right?

half of the posts you quoted were made out of clearly distinguishable ignorance. I can admit that, knowing what i know now i would never say over half that shit... but also notice that most of it was worded in a question (that means it had a "?" at the end.) If you looked you would see that i was saying what i had heard, (not stating it as fact initially) and when i got no intelligent response for why what i said or asked was incorrect, i really had to just assume it true, my questions where things you couldn't really find on the internet

but,

I have to study for 4 exams i have tommorow so i don't have time to deal with this nonsense right now, i'll be back later

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

man 1: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif "hey can penguins fly?"

man 2: :crazy:"lolololollozzzz ZMOG, he said penguins can fly!!!!"

My experience on this forum

 

[mokedaddy 5,000+ posts]

man 1: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif "hey can penguins fly?"
man 2: :crazy:"lolololollozzzz ZMOG, he said penguins can fly!!!!"

My experience on this forum

Dont be an idiot.

Dont talk out of your *** and most importantly...

Dont give advise and you will have no problems.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

...i didn't even take the time to read through all the shit you posted... but also notice that most of it was worded in a question (that means it had a "?" at the end.)

Which is it, you didn't bother reading it, or you did read it and noticed all the quotes were questions? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif You cant even maintain a coherent thought for one entire reply.
As for you asking questions to get info, name one of those replies that was worded in the form of a question in order to extract information. Name just one. Every comment I see you made that ended with a ? was in fact a sarcastic reply, not an innocent question as you now suggest. Its funny how you want to appear reasonable by stating you were ignorant for alot of those comments at the time, yet you STILL sit here and defend them (or blow them off as innocent questions). And at the time of those 'ignorant statements' you were every bit as sure of yourself and your info as you are now. Just as steadfast in your decision that you are right, and everyone else is wrong. Sound familiar? Again, you never change, you just want to appear as though you have.

As for "most" being questions... of thhe 14 quotes of yours from those 2 threads, only 4 contained even a question mark at all. None of which appeared to be asking a genuine question. How is that "most"?

man 1: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif "hey can penguins fly?"
man 2: :crazy:"lolololollozzzz ZMOG, he said penguins can fly!!!!"

My experience on this forum

It would be much more accurate this way:
man 1: "can penguins fly?"

Cotjones: "have you ever had a penguin tell you he couldn't fly? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif "

man 2: "penguins cant fly, or talk, idiot"

Cotjones: "I never said they could, I was asking! Why does everyone pick on me! wahhhhh!"

Again, we are not nearly so stupid as you think we are. Keep playing the poor little martyr, maybe someone will shed a tear for you.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Which is it, you didn't bother reading it, or you did read it and noticed all the quotes were questions? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif You cant even maintain a coherent thought for one entire reply.
As for you asking questions to get info, name one of those replies that was worded in the form of a question in order to extract information. Name just one. Every comment I see you made that ended with a ? was in fact a sarcastic reply, not an innocent question as you now suggest. Its funny how you want to appear reasonable by stating you were ignorant for alot of those comments at the time, yet you STILL sit here and defend them (or blow them off as innocent questions). And at the time of those 'ignorant statements' you were every bit as sure of yourself and your info as you are now. Just as steadfast in your decision that you are right, and everyone else is wrong. Sound familiar? Again, you never change, you just want to appear as though you have.

As for "most" being questions... of thhe 14 quotes of yours from those 2 threads, only 4 contained even a question mark at all. None of which appeared to be asking a genuine question. How is that "most"?

Originally Posted by cotjones

You fail to see how it's relevant to your point?

do you in some way have an impairment in basic communication skills...

I gurantee if i crammed them all in my ride it would be louder, does this mean i've made a good choice?

Would it be acceptable?

how is there cancellation?

So asking if one wat can be louder than another isn't like asking if an inch can be a foot?

so ur telling me all 1000 watt amps put out the same spl?

why do you think mids don't normally come in 15"s?

why not put 2 seperate sub systems in the same car?

Again, we are not nearly so stupid as you think we are. Keep playing the poor little martyr, maybe someone will shed a tear for you.

Counting is not your forte', and really? who am i joan of ark?