What 5k amp?

@SlugButter, I've yet to see where it says to mount the meter to the dash. I've read kick panel, headrest, windshield, passenger seat, and even outside of the passenger's window. Where on the dash do you mount the meter exactly? Windows up or down? A/C on or off? Can you touch the gas pedal? Music or a tone? Visors up or down? Glove box open or closed? Passenger seat reclined or normal position? Passenger seat pushed all the way forward or all the way back? Bluetooth, CD, AM/FM radio, IPOD, or zipdrive? I want to make sure that I'm metering it right.
 
@SlugButter, I've yet to see where it says to mount the meter to the dash. I've read kick panel, headrest, windshield, passenger seat, and even outside of the passenger's window. Where on the dash do you mount the meter exactly? Windows up or down? A/C on or off? Can you touch the gas pedal? Music or a tone? Visors up or down? Glove box open or closed? Passenger seat reclined or normal position? Passenger seat pushed all the way forward or all the way back? Bluetooth, CD, AM/FM radio, IPOD, or zipdrive? I want to make sure that I'm metering it right.
You’re probably asking the wrong person really. The dash meter was suction cupped to the window, which I call metering at the dash. Windows up. Ac didn’t matter, but I always kept it off. Can’t touch the gas pedal. Bass races always meter on music, some comps allow test tones others don’t. Reclined seats wasn’t mentioned or their position. Back when I metered, only cd music was allowed. No other media was to be used. These rules may be totally different today.
 
You’re probably asking the wrong person really. The dash meter was suction cupped to the window, which I call metering at the dash. Windows up. Ac didn’t matter, but I always kept it off. Can’t touch the gas pedal. Bass races always meter on music, some comps allow test tones others don’t for straight numbers. You can definitely use tones for getting scores though. Reclined seats wasn’t mentioned or their position. Back when I metered, only cd music was allowed. No other media was to be used. These rules may be totally different today.
 
You’re probably asking the wrong person really. The dash meter was suction cupped to the window, which I call metering at the dash. Windows up. Ac didn’t matter, but I always kept it off. Can’t touch the gas pedal. Bass races always meter on music, some comps allow test tones others don’t. Reclined seats wasn’t mentioned or their position. Back when I metered, only cd music was allowed. No other media was to be used. These rules may be totally different today.

That's what doesn't make sense to me. Every vehicles windshield is at a different angle. But kick panels are pretty standard in most vehicles. I've also seen the sensors on a mic stand in the passengers seat. Too many rules just to meter a vehicle. Oh well, NBD! ✌
 
The dash meter was suction cupped to the window, which I call metering at the dash.
Correct "at the dash" is generally what people call 4" up from the dash and 12" over from the A-pillar on the windshield. This is DB Drag style.
Where on the dash do you mount the meter exactly? Windows up or down? A/C on or off? Can you touch the gas pedal? Music or a tone? Visors up or down? Glove box open or closed? Passenger seat reclined or normal position? Passenger seat pushed all the way forward or all the way back? Bluetooth, CD, AM/FM radio, IPOD, or zipdrive? I want to make sure that
"At the dash" means sensor mounted to the windshield 12" over from the A pillar and 4" above the dash. If you're off a couple inches it shouldn't make that much difference. If you go to a dB drag or other show that measures up there the judge has a jig for placement and they'll normally put a little grease paint or sticker there so that they can position meter on subsequent runs and so that you'll have the spot for your own testing.

"Legal" is doors and windows sealed. AC on may or may not gain anything, same with moving around seats, visors, consoles, glove box, etc. Removing seats entirely may or may not be allowed in your org and it also may or may not help your score. I have had it help a little, hurt a little, or make no difference at all. If you started pushing more power it is likely you'd want the seats in place to help keep the cones loaded down a little more. Deadening is typically allowed just about anywhere, at least one layer. Some orgs have limits in front of the B-pillar. Again, deadening is just as likely to lose as gain for you. AFAIK everything except for "music" classes allow test tones, any normal media source (so probably not a tone generator, but USB, bluetooth from phone, CD, or iPod). It is easy enough to find a """song""" with a 3 second test tone in it, in fact most of the old school woofer test CDs would have a track with some techno beat and tones of a known frequency scattered around in the "song". Up in the northeast, rookie/amateur classes used to use music only or music run averaged with a tone run. If you're not using a tone it's worth mentioning "on music" when you report numbers as people will understand your burp number would likely be .2 to .5 higher if you spent a little time finding the right "song". My "music" and burp numbers were only about 2 tenths off when I was doing those rookie classes and that was using the official test CD of that org. I doubt any orgs are still making people use their CD these days because USB/Bluetooth is so common.

Some orgs used to measure engine off, AFAIK most would limit you from revving beyond 2K RPM. That shouldn't make too much difference, and battery tech being what it is today I'm not sure it even matters all so much.

If your org does something unusual vs. dB Drag (which is basically the standard worldwide) it is well worth mentioning it when you mention numbers. This way people who have been around have a proper reference point.

Every vehicles windshield is at a different angle. But kick panels are pretty standard in most vehicles.
The point being that just about every vehicle gains significantly measured at the kick. People who have been around know what vehicles are "friendly" to SPL, but it doesn't matter. Your 148.5 outlaw in your truck is nothing like 148.5 legal and if you care to try to find all these hypothetical gains or even quantify the gains you got for the upgrades you have done you will quickly realize that 148.5 isn't "almost 150". I can't even count how many people fought for years to get from 49 to 50, myself included.

Just go meter dB drag style sealed at the dash and you will see the importance of this distinction. Hell just sit in your passenger seat and bang your favorite bass track then throw open the driver's side door and it will almost certainly be a dramatic difference. Take a little time to test all that other stuff you mentioned and see how much or how little any of that changes everything. You can very probably find 4-5 tenths in there if you took some time testing all those things you mentioned. That said, do not assume that running the AC or closing the vents will gain metered outlaw just because you gain when you test sealed at the dash.

You will gain a new appreciation for numbers you so casually throw around once you try to find them for yourself.
 
Correct "at the dash" is generally what people call 4" up from the dash and 12" over from the A-pillar on the windshield. This is DB Drag style.

"At the dash" means sensor mounted to the windshield 12" over from the A pillar and 4" above the dash. If you're off a couple inches it shouldn't make that much difference. If you go to a dB drag or other show that measures up there the judge has a jig for placement and they'll normally put a little grease paint or sticker there so that they can position meter on subsequent runs and so that you'll have the spot for your own testing.

"Legal" is doors and windows sealed. AC on may or may not gain anything, same with moving around seats, visors, consoles, glove box, etc. Removing seats entirely may or may not be allowed in your org and it also may or may not help your score. I have had it help a little, hurt a little, or make no difference at all. If you started pushing more power it is likely you'd want the seats in place to help keep the cones loaded down a little more. Deadening is typically allowed just about anywhere, at least one layer. Some orgs have limits in front of the B-pillar. Again, deadening is just as likely to lose as gain for you. AFAIK everything except for "music" classes allow test tones, any normal media source (so probably not a tone generator, but USB, bluetooth from phone, CD, or iPod). It is easy enough to find a """song""" with a 3 second test tone in it, in fact most of the old school woofer test CDs would have a track with some techno beat and tones of a known frequency scattered around in the "song". Up in the northeast, rookie/amateur classes used to use music only or music run averaged with a tone run. If you're not using a tone it's worth mentioning "on music" when you report numbers as people will understand your burp number would likely be .2 to .5 higher if you spent a little time finding the right "song". My "music" and burp numbers were only about 2 tenths off when I was doing those rookie classes and that was using the official test CD of that org. I doubt any orgs are still making people use their CD these days because USB/Bluetooth is so common.

Some orgs used to measure engine off, AFAIK most would limit you from revving beyond 2K RPM. That shouldn't make too much difference, and battery tech being what it is today I'm not sure it even matters all so much.

If your org does something unusual vs. dB Drag (which is basically the standard worldwide) it is well worth mentioning it when you mention numbers. This way people who have been around have a proper reference point.


The point being that just about every vehicle gains significantly measured at the kick. People who have been around know what vehicles are "friendly" to SPL, but it doesn't matter. Your 148.5 outlaw in your truck is nothing like 148.5 legal and if you care to try to find all these hypothetical gains or even quantify the gains you got for the upgrades you have done you will quickly realize that 148.5 isn't "almost 150". I can't even count how many people fought for years to get from 49 to 50, myself included.

Just go meter dB drag style sealed at the dash and you will see the importance of this distinction. Hell just sit in your passenger seat and bang your favorite bass track then throw open the driver's side door and it will almost certainly be a dramatic difference. Take a little time to test all that other stuff you mentioned and see how much or how little any of that changes everything. You can very probably find 4-5 tenths in there if you took some time testing all those things you mentioned. That said, do not assume that running the AC or closing the vents will gain metered outlaw just because you gain when you test sealed at the dash.

You will gain a new appreciation for numbers you so casually throw around once you try to find them for yourself.

If it only shows 146, so be it. I know that you would have a hard time finding 4-8's behind the seat in a standard cab any louder than these. You can doubt me and hate on me all you want. You will never know unless you come to Vegas. We'll seal it up and throw some tones at it and see what it does with the cleaner amp and lithium.
 
You will never know unless you come to Vegas.
I will know exactly how loud it is once you post up your dB drag style scores.

Nobody here is saying your build is ****, or doesn't sound good, or doesn't make you happy. Just if you meter outlaw say outlaw, and gains beyond 148 are much more difficult than you think.

You will absolutely not lose anything from doing more testing here and if you took some notes you could actually offer the community useful data.
 
If it only shows 146, so be it. I know that you would have a hard time finding 4-8's behind the seat in a standard cab any louder than these. You can doubt me and hate on me all you want. You will never know unless you come to Vegas. We'll seal it up and throw some tones at it and see what it does with the cleaner amp and lithium.
Id like to know. I’m guessing you’ll still be 147, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you break 148. Why do you think people think 8s don’t get loud? I’d actually prefer 4 8s on the same power as a single 15 in the same air space. It’s just not economical. I’d like to run 8 Dayton ultimax 8 inch subs sealed in 6 cubes on 2400 watts and see what they could do, but that’s over 1000$ worth of 8s. A monster 15 ported in the same 6 cubes is just more cost effective.
 
I will know exactly how loud it is once you post up your dB drag style scores.

Nobody here is saying your build is ****, or doesn't sound good, or doesn't make you happy. Just if you meter outlaw say outlaw, and gains beyond 148 are much more difficult than you think.

You will absolutely not lose anything from doing more testing here and if you took some notes you could actually offer the community useful data.

O.k., I'm a 148.5 Outlaw. I might be able to meter it tomorrow. I got all the power and ground wires prepped today and will probably pull the seat out tomorrow and finish installing the lithium. Trying to find room for a bank of lithium inside of a standard cab isn't that easy. Especially when you have a 5 cubic foot box behind the seat and an amp underneath each seat. I did a short demo (2 minutes) today and was dropping into the low 11's. So hopefully the lithium will help keep my voltage up. I'm not buying the windshield meter location. Vehicles have different angle windshields and that has to make a difference but whatever. I know that they have already broke my overhead console. But I guess that I could be lying about that also. There's not much testing that you can do in a standard cap truck.
 
I will know exactly how loud it is once you post up your dB drag style scores.

Nobody here is saying your build is ****, or doesn't sound good, or doesn't make you happy. Just if you meter outlaw say outlaw, and gains beyond 148 are much more difficult than you think.

You will absolutely not lose anything from doing more testing here and if you took some notes you could actually offer the community useful data.

I had a talk with my box builder/friend and he told me that 151 is three times as loud as 148. That put it in perspective to me that gains will be tough. But he seems pretty confident still that my truck will score higher than before after the changes that we made (for free). We will see.
 
, I'm a 148.5 Outlaw.
That wasn't so hard now, was it?

Vehicles have different angle windshields and that has to make a difference

Some vehicles are indeed friendlier to meter than others, but you can say the same thing about any other metering locations. If you care about competing you take that into account; for example in a wall build top center port tends to meter better at the kick than on the dash. Experienced competitors will have a good idea of types of vehicles and their quirks so as long as we are told the specifics of number and how it is metered we have a good idea of what is happening based on what we have experienced in person.

Trying to find room for a bank of lithium inside of a standard cab isn't that easy.
Assuming you haven't already bought ready-made buss bars you can buss them however you like, theoretically fitting each cell wherever you have room. Of course that's implying you wanted to go through the trouble. Might consider mounting them spread out flat like a pack of firecrackers and they'd probably slide under the seats. You could buy aluminum or copper bar or even just use some 1/0 cable and buy a bulk pack of cheap ring terminals. Of course you'd need to get a bit creative to keep those terminals protected from shorting. When/if I have time to do something in my F250 I've already decided I'll be just drilling holes to the bed and throwing bank + amp in the toolbox back there.

I had a talk with my box builder/friend and he told me that 151 is three times as loud as 148. That put it in perspective to me that gains will be tough.
That's not exactly accurate. 10dB is what humans perceive as "twice as loud" but 4dB gain (in theory) should take about 3x power or cone area to achieve. That does NOT take into account the greater efficiency losses as you try to get more pressure in a cabin. Nor does it take into account inefficiency from heat (which hurts efficiency after only a couple hundred watts) and from running your drivers into higher excursion.
I know that they have already broke my overhead console.
148-149 is about where this starts happening. It's also where rearview mirrors start letting go. Again, get down to the shop and meter dB drag style at the dash with doors and windows closed just for point of reference. You may also try testing different door open positions if you care to continue competing locally. You will likely find that there's a sweet spot of how far to open the door where you get the best gains. IF you meter outlaw test outlaw and look for gains outlaw but after you do a few tests metered at the dash sealed up you will understand why it is important to make the distinction.
 
@hispls, I found room for the lithium.

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