Very SLIGHT, Whine noise when revving engine with no music playing + getting shock.

[Chromatic]

Hey guys..

I'm not sure how to trace this down.. I'd like to not pull the headunit and console out for the 25th time now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif.. All wires are solid,.. just redid a new harness.

Here's the deal.

Had a Pioneer AVH-P4100DVD after I installed my "system" this past week.. and no issues in the system that I could tell.

The AVH died from me banging too hard on some panels.. my fault.

So I replaced it with a Kenwood DDX 470. Love the new headunit.

But few minor issues.

1) Just to test.. I put the volume on zero and rev the engine and a VERY VERY almost inaudible amount of whine comes through the speakers.. Nothing you can hear even with the volume on 2.. it's that quiet. Your suggestions for removing this? Even if it's installing noise elminators/ ground loop eliminators.

2) The car would shock me randomly when I was getting in and out yesterday. Then last night it didn't shock me at all for 2 hours of fiddling around with the new headunit. While it could be static elec.. this car has never shocked me before.

Not sure where to track this down..

Something I did notice.. was the headunit wouldn't power up when I was installing it until I put the antenna lead in. Which makes me think the headunit is at least using the antenna wire as a second ground , if not initial (I do have regular ground going to it as well).

If the headunit shouldn't power up without the antenna lead in it.. then it has no bearing on this.. just thought I'd mention it.

My ground (amp ground) is bolted to a factory bolt in the rear sheetmetal where a child safety hook was.. that I removed all parts but the bolt , added some washers,.. and then ground it down tight with 4gauge ground. I don't believe this would be the issue.. it's a solid ground,.. but thoughts?

Electrical demons are a bit difficult to track sometimes.. So I'm more looking for some solutions that don't involve essentially rewiring everything, maybe to no avail. IE: Can I ground the headunit itself for a redundant ground of some sort that may help this?

With the ground loop/noise suppressors -- Will one work , or do I need 3 of them (one for each set of rca's ? ).

Oh, and to pre-empt a possible question. The shock feels like a strong static electricity shock.. touching the door handle or something.. then you don't get shocked anymore of course. It's not where you put your finger on the car metal and feel a constant "shock/buzz" sort of thing.

I put my meter to the car metal and chassis in a few areas around the car.. and it read 0.0 -- Not sure if that would really pick anything up.. but just did it anyway to see.

Thanks

Thanks,

Click to read more...

 

[Chromatic]

Ok been going over troubleshooting and possible "fixes" for my slight whine when the volume is on zero (not so much because of the noise it makes.. cause it's not an issue when playing music.. but more because I want it properly grounded/noise free..)

Here's the suggestions in the sticky up top:

There are various protective measures to take in order to decrease the likelihood of experiencing engine whine and ground loops.

Shielded RCA's

A good pair of shielded RCA's may be the easiest way to avoid engine noise. Don't use patch cables or other el-cheap-o RCA's that are unshielded. I'm not saying you need to invest a small fortune in RCA cables, just make sure they are shielded.

I bought KnuKonceptz (I think that's how it's spelled) wiring for everything.. the RCA's are insanely thick, and advertised as twisted pair (I didn't rip off the sheathing to verify).. but they look and feel like very solid RCA's.. so I think this is covered.

Proper head unit ground

This is perhaps the most common source of engine noise. Many times factory head unit grounds are poor. Relocating the ground wire or adding to the existing one will help reduce or eliminate ground loops.

I'm interested in this -- I have a gut feeling it has something to do with the ground at the headunit. The headunit wouldn't power up until I put in the Antenna (which may just be the only way this Kenwood DDX 470 works.. but I know they like to use the Antenna as a ground source). -- So , If I choose to ground my headunit differently.. How would I best go about it?

What I mean.. is it of course has the factory ground from the harness.. how would I improve upon that. IE: Can I leave the wiring harness alone,.. and run a wire from the chassis of the headunit to some metal nearby ? Where does the end by the headunit need to go for a secondary ground ? Into the harness? Tapped into a specific wire? Just to the chassis of the headunit then to a part of the car chassis?

Again, I just have a feeling this issue is related to the grounding at the headunit. Really would like to eliminate that antenna wire all together to keep it from grounding off it.. OR, can you attach a wire to the antenna lead somehow and ground that separately ? (Remember this Kendwood DDX470 wouldn't turn on until I plugged in the antenna wire/lead).

Proper amplifier ground

If none of the above have worked, check the ground for the amplifier. Make sure it is grounded to the frame, battery, or other substantial metal surface. Make sure the metal is good 'ol fashioned detroit iron. Many cars use metallic alloys or composites that aren't very conductive. Avoid those at all costs.

I did my best to make the ground solid. This is what I did.

I used a Butane torch (the big fire-extinguisher sized ones) to solder on the connection for the 4 gauge ground wire connectors (also the 4g power wire coincidentally).. Then covered about 3 inches from the butt of the connectors with shrink tubing to eliminate any other wire/metal contact aside from the connector end.

The ground wire is 3 feet.. I needed every bit of that to route it out to the place I put it. I put it in a 14mm bolt that bolts into the sheetmetal in the hatch. (Can't really get to the under carriage of the car for something more substantial with that wire.. do I need to look into relocating this? (I made sure it was a non painted surface, .. I did NOT sand the area.. but it's unpainted metal. I can easily access this ground and unbolt and sand or whatever may make it a better ground.

If pictures would help.. I'll gladly snap a few of the ground. If you want to look at how I did the power wire and fuse at the battery I'll snap that too.

But in words: I of course attached the power to the side bolt off the positive terminal of battery.. and ziptied the fuse plastic casing (80 amp) to a thick bundle of factory wiring nearby. I didn't want to screw it into any sheetmetal.. It is in a good spot (unless it being next to a factory wire bundle may be causing noise?)

Wire routing

Some claim this next fix is BS, and others swear by their grave that it works. But run your RCA's and power wires at least 18" apart. I route my RCA's on one side of the car, and power on the other. Couldn't hurt.

Did my best here. I completely re-wired the whole car.. only factory wire being used is where I tapped into the factory front speaker wire at the back of headunit (which gives it a 8-10 foot run on each side of 14 gauge speaker wire .. then attached to front factory speaker wire behind head unit,.. and that run is 3-4 ft.) --

The power wire is run down passenger side under carpet, near door seal.. it is NOT next to Speaker wire. It is NOT next to RCA's.

The RCA's I routed down the middle of the car under carpet on the side of the center console.. As I read it was best to keep the rca's a good 18inches or more apart from everything else.. The RCA's are a good 3-4 ft away from other wires.

However,.. ALL the wires come together and touch each other when they come into the area just underneath the amp. There is no way I can avoid this -- So speaker/rca/power and ground wires are all together for about 6-12" by the amp as they route to the amp plug in terminals. I couldn't think of any other way to wire an amp without wires being close to each other.. it's sort of something that MUST be due to wires all having to run into the amp. (If there is more shielding I should put on this bundle of wires (electrical tape.. or some other shielding type of material I can get to put around all the wires in this area.. let me know.)

Grounding the RCA's on the head unit

Many have had problems with Pioneer head units because of a poor internal RCA ground. To remedy this, simply wrap wire around the RCA's and screw the wire down to the head unit's chassis like so:

I just switched from a Pioneer -- to a brand new Kenwood DDX470:

Kenwood 6.1" CDDVD BuiltIn Bluetooth InDash Receiver with Fixed Faceplate DDX470 - Best Buy

The pioneer was noted to have this whine issue.. The Kenwood is not. That said.. I can still do the unsheathed speaker wire "wrap" as pictured that some do for their PIoneer units. Recommended? Or not likely an issue with this Kenwood unit?

The two 'issues" are the very subtle whine when I rev the engine with the volume at zero (any music/sound playing at any level and you can't hear it.)

2) The car shocks me when I touch the door sometimes.. Didn't used to do that. It's not a constant thing where I can hold my finger on the vehicle and feel a "charge" .. It's just like a strong static shock. It doesn't ALWAYS do it.. It did it pretty reliably last night.. then today it hasn't shocked me.. So not sure about that.

If I had to LEAVE it like it is it'd be ok.. But.. The bigger issue is the "shock".. I don't like a current running through the car like that. I did attach a meter to the car, and it doesn't read anything ac or dc.. though I am standing on the ground doing it, so it may read 0.0v due to this, not sure.

Thanks for any suggestions. I'll post pics of my ground/power in a bit.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

i always ground headunits to the vehicle floor - sanded bare metal. you want your amp ground and head unit ground to be nearly identical - electrically. that means minimal resistance.

usually it's in the amplifier design. quality filters are the first thing to go to drive down price point.

my head unit is electrically isolated from the rest of the vehicle. it only combines (power) at the battery. i did this with a simple relay. i used an inexpensive 10AWG amp kit for my head unit power and ground.

note that the shock is static which is normal but can be affected by adding external amplifiers. this is because you are adding storage devices (caps) that are connected to chassis. one way around this may be to run all grounds back to the battery directly.

 

[CrossoverOre 10+ year member]

I mentioned on one of your other posts that nissan interface harness will have a ground wire but on the factory side of the plug there will not be one. And if your deck only works with the ant plugged in then this is your problem. You will have to pull the deck out again and run a new ground for the deck.

 

[Chromatic]

Snapped a few pictures of my Ground (which I thought was good).. and My power wire by battery and the fuse I just zip tied to some factory wiring,.. (All of this is covered completely (I had to remove two panels to get to what you see in the Battery picture.. the Ground is in the Hatch/trunk area.

Ground I bolted to this part of the car: (Click pictures for larger image(s) )



See anything wrong with the location?

Here is the Power wire and fuse at battery. The Fuse is zip tied to the factory wiring there in the picture. I have black wire loom covering all the rest of the power wire after this little bit you see in the picture going left.



See any issues with that layout? I can move the wire away from that wiring if it would cause any problems.. and is the way I mounted the ring connector to the side of the terminal fine? I have one other location on the terminal (top) I can place it if need be.

 

[Chromatic]

i always ground headunits to the vehicle floor - sanded bare metal. you want your amp ground and head unit ground to be nearly identical - electrically. that means minimal resistance.

Ok,. so I need to work on my headunit ground it appears at the very least. The amp ground is a 4 Gauge cable.. When I work on the headunit ground,.. Can I use some 14 Gauge speaker wire? Also, where should I run this ground? IE: Do I need to route it back out to the negative battery terminal (would be a 5-6ft wire run.) Or should I just run it a few inches to something metal by the headunit (or grounded to headunit chassis?).

usually it's in the amplifier design. quality filters are the first thing to go to drive down price point.

my head unit is electrically isolated from the rest of the vehicle. it only combines (power) at the battery. i did this with a simple relay. i used an inexpensive 10AWG amp kit for my head unit power and ground.

Hrmm.. So basically you think I should eliminate the majority of the factory harness and run my power and ground like I did to my amp, to the headunit with a fuse inline? To a relay,.. which has the Ignition attached at two points?

note that the shock is static which is normal but can be affected by adding external amplifiers. this is because you are adding storage devices (caps) that are connected to chassis. one way around this may be to run all grounds back to the battery directly.

Yeah, I've read going back to the battery is about as good as it gets.. but what's this about not exceeding 3 feet on ground runs? Some say 2ft. If I run this headunit back to the battery it'l be a 5-7ft , at least, run due to routing?

To note: I did have a Ground loop isolator/eliminator (whatever it's called) from a while back in my Box of "parts" ... I decided just to put it inline on the Sub RCA's going into the amp to see if it did anything.

The ground loop eliminator worked for noise. No more whine when revving the engine. (You have to remember this whine was almost inaudible.. ).

I still want to work on the ground(s),.. but should I leave this ground loop eliminator in the system since it took away the noise, regardless of what I do to the grounds ?

I see @CrossoverOre has a good piece of information about the 350Z factory ground from harness..

 

[Chromatic]

I mentioned on one of your other posts that nissan interface harness will have a ground wire but on the factory side of the plug there will not be one. And if your deck only works with the ant plugged in then this is your problem. You will have to pull the deck out again and run a new ground for the deck.

Ah, you did? I must have missed it, or somehow overlooked it. So Nissan has the black ground wire coming out of the harness toward the head unit.. but it essentially goes nowhere? That's the only way that makes sense to me. That nissan put a ground wire into a molex plug but didn't ground it? Huh?

If that's true, that's terrible design.

How would you run the new ground for deck with this being the case? Do I need to buy a 10gauge amp kit to do it? Or can I run some of my 14 gauge speaker wire I have left over to essentially create a ground for the headunit?

And doing so,.. would I splice into the side of the factory harness that has the black wire,.. then run that to some piece of metal nearby? Or,.. Go back to the battery with it?

I'm taking all suggestions.

I plan on pulling the deck (and console, as the whole console has to come out, unfortunately, to get to the deck.. especially to do this. I am going to order a backup camera .. and I ordered a special cable from Kenwood so my Iphone will work (show video) on the headunit.. Apparently kenwood designed it so regular iphone cords won't work.. figures.. and you have to buy a Kenwood KCA-iP202 cable for the Video to work.

I'm trying to get all the things I'm going to do to it together before I pull the headunit again.. so I can do them all at once instead of pulling it 2-3 more times. I killed my Pioneer headunit messing with it (but I really think it was because I banged on the side panels.. cause the wiring was fine.) -- So I'm a LITTLE nervous pulling the headunit out anymore cause I don't want to break it again,.. but I'm definitely not going to bang on anything this time, and I'll be super careful even with handling it (pulling it out to access wires, etc.. ) -- Though I don't think this Kenwood DDX470 is as "sensitive" as the Pioneer's are to damage.

Thanks

 

[Chromatic]

Well,.. I went back to my Amp ground, as I didn't sand because the metal looked clean,.. but I guess it is painted, why wouldn't it be (Hangs head in shame...).. So I got out some heavy grit sand paper and got down to some bare unpainted metal this time!



Ground re-attached. (I also noticed a speaker wire poking out ,.. figured it wouldn't hurt to re-route it while I was up under there away from the ground.)



That's better. Not saying this is fixing anything,.. but from what I've gone over/read you need to make sure everything is done 100% right when trying to track down any noise issues. (Even though the Ground Loop Eliminator I added effectively silenced any noise,.. I still want to get everything grounded properly.)

 

[SamIam71]

Well,.. I went back to my Amp ground, as I didn't sand because the metal looked clean,.. but I guess it is painted, why wouldn't it be (Hangs head in shame...).. So I got out some heavy grit sand paper and got down to some bare unpainted metal this time!


Ground re-attached. (I also noticed a speaker wire poking out ,.. figured it wouldn't hurt to re-route it while I was up under there away from the ground.)



That's better. Not saying this is fixing anything,.. but from what I've gone over/read you need to make sure everything is done 100% right when trying to track down any noise issues. (Even though the Ground Loop Eliminator I added effectively silenced any noise,.. I still want to get everything grounded properly.)

Ahh, there's yer problem. You used a red insulator.

 

---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------

 

Kidding, Just kidding, I swear.lol

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

How would you run the new ground for deck with this being the case? Do I need to buy a 10gauge amp kit to do it? Or can I run some of my 14 gauge speaker wire I have left over to essentially create a ground for the headunit?

And doing so,.. would I splice into the side of the factory harness that has the black wire,.. then run that to some piece of metal nearby? Or,.. Go back to the battery with it?

I'm taking all suggestions.

Thanks

14 awg ground for the head unit is fine. to the vehicle floor is good.

the factory radio may have just grounded through the mounting brackets.

 

[Chromatic]

Ahh, there's yer problem. You used a red insulator. 

---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------

 

Kidding, Just kidding, I swear.lol

LoL.. Yup, that's surely it! I bet that ground was just fine even on the "painted" metal there.. but I'm making it a point to do every little detail of this system "right".. so I am going back to fix little things like that .. which I knew better in the first place.

But, another person said that in this car the factory harness has a ground wire coming from it, but it doesn't GO to a ground on the other end of the factory molex/harness -- Which is unbelievable to me.. BUT,.. This new head unit wouldn't power on until I stuck the Antenna lead in,.. Which made me automatically think the unit was searching for a ground, and thus is using the antenna as a ground,.. Not what I want. In the "manual" it says nothing about hooking up the antenna lead in order for it to operate/start.

Be cool if someone knew if this Kenwood DDX470 is supposed to come on whether or not you have your antenna lead in it or not,.. that would rule in or out (without pulling the dash/console and tracing wires) essentially the harness NOT having a true ground,.. which would definitely be the reason for the little bit of noise.

 

[SamIam71]

LoL.. Yup, that's surely it! I bet that ground was just fine even on the "painted" metal there.. but I'm making it a point to do every little detail of this system "right".. so I am going back to fix little things like that .. which I knew better in the first place.
But, another person said that in this car the factory harness has a ground wire coming from it, but it doesn't GO to a ground on the other end of the factory molex/harness -- Which is unbelievable to me.. BUT,.. This new head unit wouldn't power on until I stuck the Antenna lead in,.. Which made me automatically think the unit was searching for a ground, and thus is using the antenna as a ground,.. Not what I want. In the "manual" it says nothing about hooking up the antenna lead in order for it to operate/start.

Be cool if someone knew if this Kenwood DDX470 is supposed to come on whether or not you have your antenna lead in it or not,.. that would rule in or out (without pulling the dash/console and tracing wires) essentially the harness NOT having a true ground,.. which would definitely be the reason for the little bit of noise.

When I built the wires for my big 3, I accidentally put red insulators on the wire for the engine ground, and the blacks on the alternator wire. I wasn't worried about it too much, so I put them on. Now every time I see them it drives me nuts.

 

[Chromatic]

14 awg ground for the head unit is fine. to the vehicle floor is good.
the factory radio may have just grounded through the mounting brackets.

Ok,.. so run it down and out to the kick panel area or so.. and find a nice piece of metal and bolt it in?

I could run it to the battery if necessary,.. but surely that isn't.

Sounds to me I should do this in progression.. The wiring is very sound when I did it originally,.. so if this headunit doesn't have a ground and is grounding through the antenna and who knows what the exact path is.. Then adding a ground via speaker wire down to the sheetmetal on the floor should clear it right up. But, it's not a big deal to run it back to the battery if that is necessary.

You ran a separate power wire , bypassing factory wiring,.. to your headunit (like an amp I suppose).. and then grounded on the floor of the vehicle.

Just if I wanted to entertain the idea of "isolating" my headunit,.. can you give me specifics on the relay to buy (link?) -- and exactly which wires to run to it?

I see the diagram -- so this is how I'm interpreting it..

You ran a "yellow" 12v constant on from battery to relay and spliced that same wire to the headunit as the "Yellow" 12v constant power. You Ran a ground wire from headunit to floor, and spliced it mid stream to the relay as well. Then you used the "red" wire (which I used to think was the 12v constant.. but it's the ignition wire) and ran it from the factory harness to the relay, and then out from another connector on relay to the headunit. That about right?

Doesn't sound too difficult,.. think I should go with that model and isolate the HU,.. or just ground down to the floor and that's all?

I sort of thought noise would always be a result of the RCA's picking up EMI.. Is this still the case? Bad/no ground causes the RCA's to pick up noise? Cause that's where the HU is feeding the signal to everything, and with a Ground Loop Eliminator in line on the Sub RCA's it eliminated the noise completely. (But it's a bandaid in my book.)

I only ask about running a new power to headunit/relay and using your method because I am going to pull that headunit/dash out ONE more time.. and hook up a reverse/backup camera.. Hookup a new Kenwood KCA-IP202 iPod® cable (which goes to USB out and Aux Input on back of headunit) -- which will allow the video to show on screen from my iphone (so I can use my $50 garmin app and essentially have a good navigation built in to the headunit,.. plus all the other features of controlling your phone with the headunit.)

Kenwood KCA-IP202 iPod® cable

(Yeah sort of lame having to buy that particular cable to have your phone work .. but oh well.)

And.. I am going to remove the Sirius box, and wiring that is close to the headunit because I am not going to pay for it (I don't like it).. and I don't need any extra electrical draws/noise going on that will serve no purpose (the unit I have worked with the Pioneer headunit, but won't with the Kenwood.. I'd have to buy another entire Sirius unit to get it to work.. so that's coming out.) -- So I'll be doing a good bit of work.

When I am in the process of doing all that,.. should I "ground" the rca pre-outs on the headunit just for the heck of it, like this:

Or, no? That looks so "not good" for your system/wiring to me.. with barewire... but from what I've read it's cured a ton of peoples noise issues... particularly with the Pioneer units with PICO issues.

Thanks

 

[Chromatic]

When I built the wires for my big 3, I accidentally put red insulators on the wire for the engine ground, and the blacks on the alternator wire. I wasn't worried about it too much, so I put them on. Now every time I see them it drives me nuts.

Hah.. I'm not sure the kit even came with black.. I'd have to go dig around to see. I could use a sharpie on it for you!.. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I did my 4gauge power and ground wire connectors the fun way -- with a huge blow torch and an a.ss load of solder. Those connections are extremely solid! I didn't even think of the Ground having a red boot until you posted. lol.. Not like I'm going to get a 4 gauge BLACK wire confused for something else. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

 

[SamIam71]

Not trying to hijack your thread, but I bought knuconcepts rca cables too, and they have a built in remote wire for an amp. I used it, though power wires and rca's should be kept apart. You mentioned using the same brand rca cables, does yours have a built in amp remote wire? If so, are you using it?