Tubes.....and the Jerks that use them.

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

Yeah, if only DSP technology was quite at that point.

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

Get a SS amp with high clipping headroomand install 'DSP' to mimick your tube amp distortion sonic signature vs. spending

big dollars on tube amps with esoteric components.

But...that's...not...the...point. I'm not saying there's justification for really, really high priced components, but IMO, there's something an amplifier with under 10 parts in the entire signal chain offers that no combination of SS parts does. Yes, you can make them sound identical, but is it the same? Well, that answer depends on your own perspective //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

when there is a simple pathway.

Simple pathway? DSP isn't so simple from a technical standpoint, that's for sure //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif An analog front end driving a SET output stage is as simple and minimalistic as it gets.

Good transformers are hard to find, and EXPENSIVE...

Yup //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif Especially good air gapped ones...

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

But...that's...not...the...point. I'm not saying there's justification for really, really high priced components, but IMO, there's something an amplifier with under 10 parts in the entire signal chain offers that no combination of SS parts does. Yes, you can make them sound identical, but is it the same? Well, that answer depends on your own perspective //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif


Simple pathway? DSP isn't so simple from a technical standpoint, that's for sure //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif An analog front end driving a SET output stage is as simple and minimalistic as it gets.

Yup //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif Especially good air gapped ones...

^Agreed.... Pretty much all around.....

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

That's the branch on the Audiophile tree that Jim and I have in common. I'm all about: simple path = pure reproduction of sound. Whether it is a fools view of audio or not; I do not know, but it's been working well for me that way //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[GordonW 10+ year member]

Think outside the speaker box. Get a SS amp with high clipping headroomand install 'DSP' to mimick your tube amp distortion sonic signature vs. spending

big dollars on tube amps with esoteric components. People frown upon this

because they feel cheated when there is a simple pathway. There is no

benefit from a marketing point of view -> why sell a SS DSP amp for $500

when they know people will buy the $20k esoteric tube amp. lol

Because, among others, the musical instrument industry has proven that NO DSP available now, actually sounds EXACTLY like a tube amp.

Seen many a studio pro... recording engineers, etc... marvel at all the crap people buy to EMULATE a tube amp... when they usually could just BUY one in the first place, and save all the time and trouble. Apparently, time wasted isn't worth money, to some people...

Regards,

Gordon.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

That's the branch on the Audiophile tree that Jim and I have in common. I'm all about: simple path = pure reproduction of sound. Whether it is a fools view of audio or not; I do not know, but it's been working well for me that way //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Yes I agree. This is what I always have learned too! Signal Path FTW!

Because, among others, the musical instrument industry has proven that NO DSP available now, actually sounds EXACTLY like a tube amp.
Seen many a studio pro... recording engineers, etc... marvel at all the crap people buy to EMULATE a tube amp... when they usually could just BUY one in the first place, and save all the time and trouble. Apparently, time wasted isn't worth money, to some people...

Regards,

Gordon.

That seems rather obvious but people don't get it. Same reason some bands still tour with B3 Pianos with REAL Leslies.... Nothing sounds like them even though they have tried....

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

1. DSP's have been used for a long time to create musical instrument sounds

more complicated that tube amp distortion. Don't underestimate digital effects.

I have a $300 guitar amp with DSP that mimicks certain Marshall, Fender, Mesa Boogie, etc., tube amps;

12 different amps in DSP with from clean to distorted tones. I'm sure you can get better DSP's in higher end gear.

2. I can see where a studio would want tube gear to add distortion to

the recording mix, but I was thinking that the performer {ie guitar player}

would use his own gear to generate a specific tone, otherwise there is

no advantage to tube circuits for making recordings unless you want to add

tube amp distortion special effects. I'm sure someone wants this so it exists.

3. There is no proof in audio that a short or minimalist signal path = best SQ.

Do you see a mimimal signal path here; http://www.atlserver.net/d/10296-2/100_0183.jpg

Why is it ok to have a huge signal path when recording your source material

but all of a sudden, it's bad if you have one for playback? If it was bad, then

your source would be poor. There are poor recording and the root cause of

the recording can be attributed to many issues.

4. In a previous post it was said that a certain tube has the best linear

performance of any electronic device implying that this is mandatory in audio

design. On the other hand, lets look at Nelson Pass and his designs. He likes

to use vertical mosfet transistors, one of the worse kind for audio if you examine

it's linear performance. Point is, a quality amplifier is judged by it's complete design, not

by a single component that is good. The best component in the world won't make your

amplifier work if it's not designed well.

5. If you listened to a musical instrument live and like the sound, then why would you

want to add 'more coloration' to the natural sound of the instrument? There is no tubes

in acoustical guitars, saxaphones, pianos, etc. lol

Because, among others, the musical instrument industry has proven that NO DSP available now, actually sounds EXACTLY like a tube amp.

I bet they didn't ABX the test, lol... and did they try to dupe all the tube amps in the world? What I mean is, not every tube amp design

will have the same overload performance so if you try to mimick a tube amp via DSP, which ones were chosen? lol ..

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

That's the branch on the Audiophile tree that Jim and I have in common. I'm all about: simple path = pure reproduction of sound. Whether it is a fools view of audio or not; I do not know, but it's been working well for me that way //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

It's also nice to learn the truth about audio in spite that you may have

personal preferences. I have preferences - just because - , but I know

the audible effects, if any for each case. It's nice to educate yourself to know

the issues.

I've done D/A to ADC tests where I sabotaged the signal path by

doing extra extra converstions vs. digital pathway up to the audio amp.

Result: nobody can tell the difference. Not only is the signal path much longer,

the signal is being 'hacked' to bits {pun} many times over. lol

This is funny because many people in the audio world insist they need

external 'special' DAC's, they insist that only 1 conversion is done, but

I know these people would fail a blind test because nobody has ears

as good as test equipment.

An interesting blind test would be MP3 vs. uncompressed audio.

At what bit rate do people start to hear a difference? They will fail at

some compression rate. If compressed music is not audible, then why

would a pure signal taking a long path be audible ?

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

3. There is no proof in audio that a short or minimalist signal path = best SQ.

Do you see a mimimal signal path here; http://www.atlserver.net/d/10296-2/100_0183.jpg

Why is it ok to have a huge signal path when recording your source material

but all of a sudden, it's bad if you have one for playback? If it was bad, then

your source would be poor. There are poor recording and the root cause of

the recording can be attributed to many issues.

1)My ear is my proof //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

2)It's not ok, that's why 95% of all pop recordings sound like crap //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

1)My ear is my proof //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

2)It's not ok, that's why 95% of all pop recordings sound like crap //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

* Unless your test is controlled, it's just a gut feeling.

* You bought almost every pop music CD to examine ?

I could be wrong, but I don't think pop music is engineered for SQ as the

the main objective, that market is more interested in other aspects of the sound.

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

1)Yes.

2)Yes. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Honestly if I hear another person "QUOTE" or mention an ABX test I am going to drive to their house and put a soldering iron in both of their ears. Then I’m going to break their fingers so that they can’t type this CRAP anymore.... It's seriously the lamest excuse anyone has ever come up with why something isn't better than something else. Hearing is subjective get over it!!! I know I know you are going to say they are designed to find if two things actually do sound worlds different, well I leave it at that. But, think about the exact terms of what the test is testing and what we are actually buying, listening to, and watching. If I go to the store and listen to something with special cables, power condition, different CD Players, different Amps, TUBES, NO TUBES, and I like something and I buy it, its because it had something that caught my eye or ear rather. What I am trying to say is you can spout off all the technical jargon you want all day everyday, but it comes down to what people like, ABX or NO ABX. If you live in a world where you believe that everything has to be and pass an ABX test to go into your system well then I am happy for you, but I don’t want your system. I’m happy with my own which probably wouldn’t pass your ABX testing on several levels. However, I would almost guaranty you with 100% certainty that most people could tell the difference between something like a REAL B3 with a Leslie and a synthesized one. Oh and DSP “effect” boxes sound like balls....

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Oh on a brighter note.... I

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

Awww //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cuddle.gif.bd1b29c179c0482f8313dbd790b74c94.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/inlove.gif.6846f78f06b405429ef3a00129788a2a.gif

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

I am going to drive to their house and put a soldering iron in both of their ears.

Do you know who I am?

I’m going to break their fingers so that they can’t type this CRAP anymore....

.. I'm the Juggernaut B*tch!.......... your soldering irons can't hurt me....

.... I'm gunna hit you with your own pimped tube amp .....

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif