Sundown vs Type-R help chew chew chewsing

[Bassin Buick]

chew chew choose is a reference to ralph wiggum , and if you choose alpine over sundown you are just as smart as ralph wiggum.

 

[dragonrage 10+ year member]

i agree, but try and explain that to 99.9% of people around here. i wouldnt go as far and call them useless garbage, but, ya i love when something like the FI Q gets called a sq subwoofer when its not going to sound any better than all the other subs mentioned on here. though i did read somewhere recently that the "I Heat Ring" option is a shorting ring. then would the FI Q be better than some, but still not going to be a highly regarded sq sub

Heh. I still have a Q12 from my last install. Everyone said it sounded so great. It was far from the worst I've heard, but it's painfully obvious that it's not truly a SQ driver. I think I'll get a Shiva-X2 now. Whatever I do, it must be underhung (preferred), or have XBL² or LMS technology. But LMS-R is ruled out due to sky-high inductance. The only included exception is Acoustic Elegance, but the AV series is not even available right now. I would probably buy the Incriminator Flatlyne but the whole "looks like a person dying" marketing blurb is so incredibly immature and offensive that I'm not sure I can give them my money, even if they finally did make a sub that doesn't sound like crap. I'm not 100% sure yet, though. The product DOES seem good.

 

[Cruzer 10+ year member]

John has been shipping ae av subs. I would call before I placed an order and talk to him but I think he is almost caught up. His thread says he has all the parts for av subs in stock

those are some nice subs especially the 1000 watt rms allowing for true sq at a high output level

i plan av 15 or Dayton hf 15 myself

 

[ejschultz 10+ year member]

Can we get Audioholic to break down the XBL^2, LMS, and LMS-R? I'd like to know what that's all about.

 

[Cruzer 10+ year member]

Can we get Audioholic to break down the XBL^2, LMS, and LMS-R? I'd like to know what that's all about.

its not audioholic but i linked where jacob, owner of sundown, and nick from FI talk about the motor designs

I need Bl/Bl Curve Explained - SMD Forum

 

[OmegaBunny 10+ year member]

I love my IA Flatlyne! It sounded much better and gets lower than my 10" type r that I gave to my father-in-law. Of course the IA is a 12 and the type r was a 10". But the flatlyne got lower, played louder, and sounded better in a trunk car then the type r didin a SUV. The marketing may be gimmicky but the sub does sound amazing! So good that I am planning on getting a second. It can take the powa also, rated at 750w but gave it 900w daily for over 6 months and it wanted more! But between the 2 mentioned, I wasn't overly impressed with the type r so if I was to do it again I would go SA! Hope that helps.

 

[Liquid Bass 10+ year member]

The SA12 has a little bit more Xmax then the Type R, but it's VERY close. The R does lose, though. I wouldn't consider either of them for any sound quality applications. For SPL, SA12 can move just a bit more air.
Type R is never the answer for anyone who cares about their system. Ever. Type R's are for recommending to people that ask us about subwoofers when we don't want to spend the effort explaining where to get the real good stuff.

I ran a type r and it performed just as good as some of the higher end drivers i have had. Specificly my eclipse ti. It wasnt nearly as good sq wise but wasnt bad, it also is one of the louder subs i have had and i gave that thing a beating. Never let me down

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Can we get Audioholic to break down the XBL^2, LMS, and LMS-R? I'd like to know what that's all about.

I didnt read Cruzer's link, but knowing the authors, Im sure their information is 100%. But if you want cliff notes...

XBL^2 is also known as dual-gap, because there's an extra groove machined in the motor (hence 'dual gap') to redirect motor flux and widen its concentration area to include more of the coil's linear stroke.

LMS is a special way of winding the coil so that more wire is located on the ends of the coil than in the middle (hourglass shaped). This difference in wire along the length of the coil corresponds to the loss of magnetic flux as the coil moves away from the center position (and highest point of mag flux). Basically the further the coil moves out of the gap, the more wire it has to absorb/utilize the weakening magnetic field. If done properly, the result is equal magnetic force being applied no matter where the coil is and how strong the magnetic field is there.

Split coil is similar to LMS, in that it uses multiple coils on the former, As one coil is moving out of the mag flux concentration, the other is moving in. Net result, same amount of force at all times (theoretically).

JBL uses an interesting variation of the split coil and split gap (2 coils, 2 gap locations) called differential-drive. The two coils are wired backwards from each other, and placed in opposing magnetic fields. This means their force is coupled together, while the coil surface area is doubled. Better heat dissipation, less power compression, flat BL, and inductance is lowered which flattens the impedance curve. This is the motor design used on the infamously well performing JBL WGTi series of subs.

 

[dragonrage 10+ year member]

JBL uses an interesting variation of the split coil and split gap (2 coils, 2 gap locations) called differential-drive. The two coils are wired backwards from each other, and placed in opposing magnetic fields. This means their force is coupled together, while the coil surface area is doubled. Better heat dissipation, less power compression, flat BL, and inductance is lowered which flattens the impedance curve. This is the motor design used on the infamously well performing JBL WGTi series of subs.

Well performing? So people claim, but look at the awful overhung-like parabolic BL curve on the Klippel test on "the other site." Impressive? Absolutely not. Aside from being parabolic, it's not even close to symmetrical. I think I would trade "Differential Drive" for "Symmetrical Drive" any day.

 

[Villeza1 10+ year member]

I didnt read Cruzer's link, but knowing the authors, Im sure their information is 100%. But if you want cliff notes...
XBL^2 is also known as dual-gap, because there's an extra groove machined in the motor (hence 'dual gap') to redirect motor flux and widen its concentration area to include more of the coil's linear stroke.

LMS is a special way of winding the coil so that more wire is located on the ends of the coil than in the middle (hourglass shaped). This difference in wire along the length of the coil corresponds to the loss of magnetic flux as the coil moves away from the center position (and highest point of mag flux). Basically the further the coil moves out of the gap, the more wire it has to absorb/utilize the weakening magnetic field. If done properly, the result is equal magnetic force being applied no matter where the coil is and how strong the magnetic field is there.

Split coil is similar to LMS, in that it uses multiple coils on the former, As one coil is moving out of the mag flux concentration, the other is moving in. Net result, same amount of force at all times (theoretically).

JBL uses an interesting variation of the split coil and split gap (2 coils, 2 gap locations) called differential-drive. The two coils are wired backwards from each other, and placed in opposing magnetic fields. This means their force is coupled together, while the coil surface area is doubled. Better heat dissipation, less power compression, flat BL, and inductance is lowered which flattens the impedance curve. This is the motor design used on the infamously well performing JBL WGTi series of subs.

Hmm, you learn something everyday. That was explained very well!

 

[Cruzer 10+ year member]

JBL uses an interesting variation of the split coil and split gap (2 coils, 2 gap locations) called differential-drive. The two coils are wired backwards from each other, and placed in opposing magnetic fields. This means their force is coupled together, while the coil surface area is doubled. Better heat dissipation, less power compression, flat BL, and inductance is lowered which flattens the impedance curve. This is the motor design used on the infamously well performing JBL WGTi series of subs.

i have to agree with dragonrage, that this design is ok at best, but far from a great design or great sq motor. even if the following link's tests are not accurate(which im going to say they are pretty close considering same guy, same machine measured others flat) the bl curves are so far from being anywhere nice. the new type r design looks better, that is if their bl graphs on their site are accurate

DIYMA.com

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Well performing? So people claim, but look at the awful overhung-like parabolic BL curve on the Klippel test on "the other site." Impressive? Absolutely not. Aside from being parabolic, it's not even close to symmetrical. I think I would trade "Differential Drive" for "Symmetrical Drive" any day.

Its a widely renown and respected SQ driver. I guess all those people haven't seen the BL graph yet.

Everyone has their own opinion.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

i have to agree with dragonrage, that this design is ok at best, but far from a great design or great sq motor. even if the following link's tests are not accurate(which im going to say they are pretty close considering same guy, same machine measured others flat) the bl curves are so far from being anywhere nice. the new type r design looks better, that is if their bl graphs on their site are accurateDIYMA.com

You are both correct, and I misspoke about the flat BL. I was thinking DD was split gap, but its not. Its simply dual overhung coils, like dragonrage said.

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

I think the new Type-R is a great design all in all with many great features not found in other cheaper woofers -- but it is no match for the SA in terms of durability both mechanically and thermally and you cannot re-cone it as far as I'm aware.

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

Interestingly... many people actually prefer the sound of subs with parabolic BL curves over those with flat curves. The parabolic curves tend to sound "punchy" as they create an upper bass hump at higher levels of travel when the Qts rises due to reduced BL... people interpret flat curves as "dry" as they do not do this -- when in reality they are simply more accurate.

The fun thing about audio is that you can pick what you LIKE -- and it doesn't have to be the most accurate for you to enjoy it.

Personally I LOVE how XBL^2 drivers sound... had a Brahma MKI, SI Mag v4, SI BM MKIII, etc... loved them all.